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This Is Part 2 Of 'You Are A Hopeless...If You'
Part 1 Here
A Word Of Clarification Here Is That There Is Always Hope From God's Point
Of View.
It Is Only Hopeless, When On This Side Of Heaven One Refuses To Believe
The Plain Words Of Christ.
Some However, Maintain That 'You Are A Hopeless... If God Determines So.'
This Is Predestination And Fatalism Which Are Not Scriptural
"Predestination and Fatalism
do not differ in the main. They differ
only in this, that with predestination the external determination of human action proceeds from a rational Being, and with
fatalism from an irrational one. But in either case the result is the same: that happens which must happen." (Arthur
Schopenhauer, On Human Nature, Free-Will and Fatalism.
http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/s/schopenhauer/arthur/human/chapter3.html
But Even This The Distinction That Schopenhauer Makes Doesn't Apply In
Differentiating Predestination From Stoic Fatalism Because In Stoicism The Logos, Is Not 'Irrational' But Is The Constant
Principle Of Two Becoming One, Or The Interaction Of Opposites And Our Accepting Of Its Course.
Marcus Aurelius, A Stoic Says This: Each thing is of like form from everlasting
and comes round again in its cycle. -- Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, II, 14
This Observation Comes From The Belief Of Heraclitus, Who Taught The Logos,
Which Could Be Understood And Followed Through Seeing How Opposites Interacted. The Limitation Here, Is That They Saw Part
Of The Process But Not Completely Understanding How They Interact But Don't Become Each Other, And The Person Behind
It Who Would Take On Flesh (Two Become One), Would Prove The Two Groups As Sinners, (Two Become One), And In Need
Of A Saviour. (Romans 11:24:32; Acts 13:46ff) Would Bring Believing Jew And Gentile Together (Ephesians 2) Through His Death
(Two Become One), Would Be Head Of The Church (Two Become One), Which Is His Body (Ephesians 5:32)
"Heraclitus was the earliest Greek
thinker to make logos a central concept. He urges us to pay attention to the logos, which "governs all things"
and yet is also something we "encounter every day." We should probably emphasize the linguistic connections of logos when
interpreting Heraclitus's thought. In our efforts to understand the world, we should look to our language and the order embodied
in it, rather than to scientific or religious views that neglect this.
In the 3d century BC the proponents of Stoicism borrowed
the idea of logos from Heraclitus (neither Plato nor Aristotle had given the term prominence) and used it for the
immanent ordering principle of the universe - represented, at the level of language, by humankind's ordered discourse. Nature
and logos are often treated as one and the same; but logos is nature's overall rational structure, and not all natural
creatures have logos, or reason, within them. Humans are urged to "live consistently with logos...
The 6th-century BC Greek philosopher Heraclitus was the first to use the
term Logos in a metaphysical sense. He asserted that the world is governed by a firelike Logos, a divine
force that produces the order and pattern discernible in the flux of nature. He believed that this force is similar to human
reason and that his own thought partook of the divine Logos.
In Stoicism, as it developed after the 4th century BC, the
Logos is conceived as a rational divine power that orders and directs the universe; it is identified with God, nature, and fate."
http://mb-soft.com/believe/text/logos.htm
The Article At The Top By Schopenhauer, Concerning
Human Nature, Free-Will and Fate Is Not Antagonistic To Fatalism And Predestination But Instead Defends Them Making Little
Distinctions Between The Two.
For Those That Argue That Anything That Has A Precedent In Greek Thought,
Ought To Come To Nought Should Be Challenged To Give Up The Belief In Predestination And Fatalism Because The Stoics
And Hindus Believed It Before They Did, Though They Believed In gods And The Calvinist In God.
Rejecting Any Precedent Is Not What I Believe However, Because God Has
Made Some Of His Truths Plain To Even Unbelievers. (Romans 1)
The Following Chart Compares Stoicism And Predestination.
This Is A Work In Progress So More Will Be Added Later.
| Stoicism: |
Predestination: |
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Marcus Aurelius A Stoic:
"If the gods care not for me or my children,
there is a reason for it"
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Calvinist:
'If God Care Not For Me Or My Children, There Is A Reason For It.'
-Limited Atonement
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The controlling intelligence understands its own nature, and what it does, and whereon it works. --
Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, VI, 5
This Sounds Like This Intelligence Aurelius Speaks Of Has Consciousness.
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Calvinism: 'Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! 34 "Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who
has been his counselor?" 35 "Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?" 36 For from him
and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.' (Romans 11)
Which Is Quoted Out Of Context By The Calvinist Who Should Have Read What Was Before:
"32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them
all." (Romans 11) |
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Each thing is of like form from everlasting and comes round again in its cycle. -- Marcus Aurelius,
Meditations, II, 14
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Calvinism:
"5 The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. 6 The
wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. 7 All streams
flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again. 8 All
things are wearisome, more than one can say. The eye never has enough of seeing, nor the ear its fill of hearing.
9 What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun. 10 Is there anything of which one can say, "Look! This is something new"? It was
here already, long ago; it was here before our time....
15 Whatever is has already been, and what will be has been before; and God will call
the past to account. ..."
Ecclesiastes 1:5:-10-3:15,:
But Quoting This Ought To Be Accompanied With:
" " |
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Nothing happens to anybody which he is not fitted by nature to bear. -- Marcus
Aurelius, Meditations, V, 18 |
"13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he
will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that
you can stand up under it. " (1 Corinthians 10)
But Scripture Goes On To Mention Our Side:
'14 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry.' (Ibid) |
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Whatever may befall thee, it was preordained for thee from everlasting. -- Marcus Aurelius, Meditations,
X, 5
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"7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the
Lord, do all these things. 8 "You heavens above, rain down righteousness; let the clouds shower it down. Let the earth
open wide, let salvation spring up, let righteousness grow with it; I, the Lord, have created it. 9 "Woe to him
who quarrels with his Maker, to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter,
'What are you making?' Does your work say, 'He has no hands'? 10 Woe to him who says to his father, 'What have
you begotten?' or to his mother, 'What have you brought to birth?' (Isaiah 45)
Also Romans Nine.
However, Calvinists Again Miss The Other Side And Fail To See How Two Becomes One.
"19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them
that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there
are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use,
and prepared unto every good work." (2 Timothy 2; KJV )
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All that happens is as usual and familiar as the rose in spring and the crop in summer. -- Marcus Aurelius,
Meditations, IV, 44 Whatever happens at all happens as it should; thou wilt find this true, if thou shouldst watch narrowly.
-- Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, IV 10
This And The View Of Ecclesiastes Makes Man No More Self Determining Than Soulless Animals.
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There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: ...14 I know
that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so
that men will revere him. 15 Whatever is has already been, and what will be has been before; and God will call the
past to account. 18 I also thought, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19
Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same
breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust,
and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the
earth?" 22 So I saw that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot. For who can
bring him to see what will happen after him? (Ecclesiastes 3)
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| Personhood: No More Autonomous Than Plants And Animals. |
"Predestination and Fatalism do not differ in the main. They differ only in this, that with predestination the external determination of human
action proceeds from a rational Being, and with fatalism from an irrational one. But in either case the result is the same:
that happens which must happen." (Arthur Schopenhauer, On Human Nature, Free-Will and Fatalism. |
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"Stoicism is characterized as a philosophy of materialism, pantheism, and fatalism. It is materialistic
in the sense that everything that exists possesses corporeality and is ultimately traced back to God. The Stoic God, redolent
of Plato's Timaeus, is said to be the "body" of the universe whereby God is its soul. This is how Stoicism becomes
pantheistic in its understanding of the relationship between the universe and God. It further portrays a fatalistic universe
by declaring that everything that occurs happens by necessity. Nothing is left to any libertarian volition. This has caused its followers to adopt a sort of apathy toward our fatalistic universe. This apathy, say the
Stoics, is characterized as "accepting the will of God", something very reminiscent of Christianity. Hence, many make the
association of Stoic fatalism with the Christian doctrine of predestination (e.g. the Augustinian-Calvinist view)."
http://sguthrie.net/greekchristian.htm
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Picture:
This apathy, say the Stoics, is characterized as "accepting
the will of God", something very reminiscent of Christianity. Hence, many make the association
of Stoic fatalism with the Christian doctrine of predestination (e.g. the Augustinian-Calvinist view)."
http://sguthrie.net/greekchristian.htm
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Man Is In The 'Image Of God':
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,
and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all
the creatures that move along the ground." 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them." (Genesis 1)
We Are In the Image Of A God Who Says, 'Us' And 'Our' God
14 God said to Moses, "~I am who I am. This is what
you are to say to the Israelites: '~I am has sent me to you.'" 15 God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites,
'The Lord, the God of your fathers--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob--has sent me to you.' This is
my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation. " (Exodus 3:14)
God Who Says, 'I am who I am', And 'I am has sent me to you', Has Revealed Here That Being In His Image
Includes Being Able To Not Only Say, 'He Is', But 'I Am'.
"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he
is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11)
Jesus Says: "Before Abraham Was, I Am." (John 8)
The Jews Didn't Attempt To Stone Him Just Because He Said 'I Am'-Eyw Eimi,
But Because He Was, The I Am, Before Abraham.
It Was His Eternal I Am-Ness That Rouled Them.
We Are In The Image Of God At Conception.
This Is How We Should Argue Against Abortion.
If We Are Not In The Image Of God At Conception Then Abortion Is No
Worse Than Pulling Up A Weed Or Killing An Animal.
Killing Animals Is Wrong, But Not Comparable To The Killing
Of Man.
But That Doesn't Stop Mindless New Agers And Evolutionists From Protecting The Animals More Than The
Unborn.
We Can Say 'I Am' As
Well.
Saying This Is Self Awareness And Consciousness. Through The Use Of Personal
Pronouns We Distinguish Ourselves From Others And Soulless And Mindless Plants And Animals.
If We Have No More Say Than Plants And Animals Then Our Image That
Comes From God That Allows Us To Say, 'I Am' Is Meaningless, And Places Us With The Plants And Animals.
If God's Plan Doesn't Include The Exercise Of Our 'I Am-Ness' Then We Are
Mere Parts Of A Machine, Not Thinking, Choosing Individuals.
With Self Awareness Comes Self Determination And The Drawing Of All Men
(Jn. 12:32), By God, Enables All Men Self Awareness And Self Determination.
I Am-Ness Means That I'm Not A Mindless Participant In God's Plan, And
The Majority Removed From God's Plan But 'I Am' Therefore I Think, I Choose, I Feel. Because I Am Self Aware.
Murdering Man Is Wrong, Because It Takes Away His Self Awareness And Self
Determination And Because He Is In God's Image.
God Wouldn't Give Man This 'I Am-Ness But Then Deny His Ability To Be As
He Was Created.
Concerning Stoicism,
Not Only Does Marcus Aurelius A Stoic mention 'gods' But He Speaks Over
And Over Of Predestination.
Now One Can Find Quotes From Aurelius That Appear To Be About Free Will,
But These Can Only Be The Surface Result Of A Prior And Irrestible Determinism That Stoics And Calvinists Believe In.
It Is No Different Than A Calvinist Claiming That We Are Predestined But
Still Maintaining That We Are Responsible For Our Decisions And God Is Love. Both Are Contradictory Statements.
"The Brahmin philosophers also express the unalterable fixity of innate
character in a mystical fashion. They say that Brahma, when a man is produced, engraves his doings and sufferings in written
characters on his skull, and that his life must take shape in accordance therewith. They point to the jagged edges in the
sutures of the skull-bones as evidence of this writing; and the purport of it, they say, depends on his previous life and
actions. The same view appears to underlie the Christian, or rather, the Pauline, dogma of Predestination."
http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/s/schopenhauer/arthur/human/chapter3.html
However, I Don't Believe In Predestination And Don't Believe In Predestination
To The Exclusion Of Man's Autonomy After The Resistable Drawing Of God.
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