Here is a website cowritten by a Karaite Jew-Raine who is also a member
of the Jesus Debates Group.
I will be refuting the refutations on her site, starting with Isaiah
52 and 53.
http://uk.geocities.com/hesedyahu/Tanakh/mp_refutedis49is61.htm
She says:
"52:13 Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and
lifted up, and shall be very high.
As has been said before, the servant is repeatedly identified with Israel
(Isaiah 41:8,9, 43:10, 44:1,2,21(2x), 45:4, 49:3). It is noticeable that chapter 52 is talking about Israel, and chapter 54
is talking about Israel." End of Quote
BJ:
Well, lets look at the chapters she refers to:
8 But
thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. 9 Thou whom I have taken from
the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen
thee, and not cast thee away. (Isaiah 41)
Here the particular servant is identified as Israel.
From the Hebrew English Bible unless otherwise noted:
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10 Ye are My witnesses, saith the LORD, and My servant whom
I have chosen; that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me there was no God formed, neither shall
any be after Me. {S} Isaiah 45 |
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24 I said therefore unto you, that
ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25 Then said
they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true;
and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. (John 8, KJV)
Notice that Jesus is a servant of God the Father as well.
Notice how many are talking in chapter 48
טז קִרְבוּ אֵלַי
שִׁמְעוּ-זֹאת, לֹא מֵרֹאשׁ
בַּסֵּתֶר דִּבַּרְתִּי--מֵעֵת
הֱיוֹתָהּ, שָׁם אָנִי;
וְעַתָּה, אֲדֹנָי יְהוִה
שְׁלָחַנִי--וְרוּחוֹ.
{פ} 16 Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this: From the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time that it
was, there am I; and now the Lord GOD hath sent me, and His spirit. {P} (Isaiah 48)
The person that says 'from the time that it was, there am I' is being
sent by the Lord God. This cannot be Israel or Isaiah but the King of Israel.
Isaiah 43:10
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1043.htm
א וְעַתָּה שְׁמַע,
יַעֲקֹב עַבְדִּי; וְיִשְׂרָאֵל,
בָּחַרְתִּי בוֹ. 1 Yet now hear, O Jacob
My servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen;
ב כֹּה-אָמַר
יְהוָה עֹשֶׂךָ וְיֹצֶרְךָ
מִבֶּטֶן, יַעְזְרֶךָּ:
אַל-תִּירָא עַבְדִּי
יַעֲקֹב, וִישֻׁרוּן
בָּחַרְתִּי בוֹ. 2 Thus saith the LORD
that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, who will help thee: Fear not, O Jacob My servant, and thou, Jeshurun, whom
I have chosen.
כא זְכָר-אֵלֶּה
יַעֲקֹב, וְיִשְׂרָאֵל
כִּי עַבְדִּי-אָתָּה;
יְצַרְתִּיךָ עֶבֶד-לִי
אַתָּה, יִשְׂרָאֵל לֹא
תִנָּשֵׁנִי. 21 Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel,
for thou art My servant; I have formed thee, thou art Mine own servant; O Israel, thou shouldest not forget Me.
But they forget about verse six which says:
ו כֹּה-אָמַר
יְהוָה מֶלֶךְ-יִשְׂרָאֵל
וְגֹאֲלוֹ, יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת:
אֲנִי רִאשׁוֹן וַאֲנִי
אַחֲרוֹן, וּמִבַּלְעָדַי
אֵין אֱלֹהִים. 6 Thus saith the LORD, the King of
Israel, and his Redeemer the LORD of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me
there is no God.
Notice two are talking here and notice what they say. So Raine has seen
Israel in this chapter but forgot about the King of Israel and his redeemer the Lord of hosts who say they are the first and
the last, which Jesus fulfilled in the NT.
Check out: Revelation 1:7,8, 17,18
Also so far the servant is mentioned as Israel.
Why wasn't the servant in Isaiah 53 identified as Israel.
To say that all references to a servant in scripture is referring to Israel
is like saying all references to nations refers to Israel.
You cannot rightly assume that a few references to Israel being a servant
means all references are about Israel.
One must read the context and the context of Isaiah 53 contrasts the Messiah
to Israel .
ד לְמַעַן עַבְדִּי
יַעֲקֹב, וְיִשְׂרָאֵל
בְּחִירִי; וָאֶקְרָא
לְךָ בִּשְׁמֶךָ, אֲכַנְּךָ
וְלֹא יְדַעְתָּנִי.
4 For the sake of Jacob My servant, and Israel Mine elect, I have called thee by thy name, I have surnamed thee, though thou
hast not known Me. (Isaiah 45)
Again, Israel is specifically identified as 'my servant' not so in Isaiah
53.
To assume something is true of the whole because of part of the whole,
is faulty logic.
To assume that every reference refers to Israel and not the king of Israel
who is also mentioned is faulty logic.
The difference is that the King of Israel is righteous, Israel is not.
(1 Kings 19:10), Also compare the servant of chapter 53 to the one he is dying because of and for.
Raine goes on: "It is noticeable that chapter 52 is talking about Israel,
and chapter 54 is talking about Israel."
Actually, Isaiah 52: 13 ff is talking about the King of Israel.
יג הִנֵּה יַשְׂכִּיל,
עַבְדִּי; יָרוּם וְנִשָּׂא
וְגָבַהּ, מְאֹד. 13 Behold, My servant shall
prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high. יד כַּאֲשֶׁר
שָׁמְמוּ עָלֶיךָ רַבִּים,
כֵּן-מִשְׁחַת מֵאִישׁ
מַרְאֵהוּ; וְתֹאֲרוֹ,
מִבְּנֵי אָדָם. 14 According as many were appalled
at thee--so marred was his visage unlike that of a man, and his form unlike that of the sons of men-- טו כֵּן
יַזֶּה גּוֹיִם רַבִּים,
עָלָיו יִקְפְּצוּ מְלָכִים
פִּיהֶם: כִּי אֲשֶׁר
לֹא-סֻפַּר לָהֶם, רָאוּ,
וַאֲשֶׁר לֹא-שָׁמְעוּ,
הִתְבּוֹנָנוּ. {ס} 15 So shall he startle
many nations, kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which had not been told them shall they see, and that
which they had not heard shall they perceive. {S}
Jesus fulfilled this in the NT.
(John 9:4 ; John 14:31; Matthew 26:42 John 4:34, 5:30, 6:38, 8:29 : Philippians
2:5-11; Matthew 26:67-68 Matthew 27:26-30
Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:14, 1 Peter 1:2, 1:19,
1 John 1:7 Revelation 1:5 , Matthew 28:18, Acts 2:36,
5:31, Ephesians 1:20-22, 1 Peter 3:22, Revelation 5:9-12 : Mark 14:65, 15:16-20, Luke 22:63-64,
John 19:1-3
Unbelieving Jews assume that this is about Israel not the King of Israel.
As far as Isaiah 54 is concerned the Hebrew Bible says this:
ה כִּי בֹעֲלַיִךְ
עֹשַׂיִךְ, יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת
שְׁמוֹ; וְגֹאֲלֵךְ קְדוֹשׁ
יִשְׂרָאֵל, אֱלֹהֵי
כָל-הָאָרֶץ יִקָּרֵא.
5 For thy Maker is thy husband, the LORD of hosts is His name; and the Holy One of Israel is thy Redeemer, the God of the
whole earth shall He be called. (Isaiah 54)
Here again two persons seem to be speaking and are talking about the 'Holy
One of Israel' being their, Israel's 'redeemer' and 'the God of the whole earth shall he be called.'
Can't be talking about Israel in this verse.
Funny how they pick and choose which verses they wan't to pay attention
to.
However, the main point of this message is not how many are talking but
that the verses that Raine gives specifically identify the servant as Israel, chapter 53 does not.
In fact the servant of chapter 53 is in stark contrast to Israel, just
read the chapter.
It is still true, 'Who Hath Believed Our Report?'.
Raine says:
"52:14-15 According as many were appalled at thee -- so marred was his
visage unlike that of a man, and his form unlike that of the sons of men -- So shall he startle many nations, kings shall
shut their mouths because of him; for that which had not been told them shall they see, and that which they had not heard
shall they perceive."
BJ:
Jesus fulfilled these scriptures:
(John 9:4 ; John 14:31; Matthew 26:42 John 4:34, 5:30, 6:38, 8:29 :
Philippians 2:5-11; Matthew 26:67-68 Matthew 27:26-30; Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:14, 1 Peter 1:2, 1:19, 1 John 1:7; Revelation
1:5; Matthew 28:18, Acts 2:36, 5:31, Ephesians 1:20-22, 1 Peter 3:22, Revelation 5:9-12 : Mark 14:65, 15:16-20, Luke 22:63-64,
John 19:1-3)
"Make your own attitude that of Christ Jesus, 6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His
own advantage. 7 Instead He emptied Himself by assuming the form of a slave, taking
on the likeness of men. And when He had come as a man in His external form, 8 He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death--even to death on a cross. 9 For this reason God also highly exalted Him and gave Him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow-- of those who are in heaven and on earth and under
the earth-- 11 and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:5-11, The Complete Jewish Bible)
This scripture is a fulfillment of this Isaiah 52:13ff and 53 passage
and Psalm 45:23
Raine says:
"Because of Israel’s humble beginnings and the suffering that
it has suffered, not only because of their own sins but also because of the bad treatment by the nations, they don’t
see him (Israel) as much at all. They’ll be surprised and startled at his exaltation. Although some translations try
to translate the word translated "startled" as "sprinkled", the parallelism points more towards "startled" to go with the
following statement of the kings shutting their mouths."
BJ:
Humble beginnings?
The nations will only be startled when the Messiah shows up on the scene
and the House of David who 'pierced him' and 'thrust him through' mourns because of Him. (Zechariah 12:10ff ; John 19: ; Revelation
1:7,8 17,18), and in the end when Israel is regathered and restored spiritually it will not be because of their righteousness
but because of Gods righteousness.
"כב לָכֵן אֱמֹר
לְבֵית-יִשְׂרָאֵל, כֹּה
אָמַר אֲדֹנָי יְהוִה,
לֹא לְמַעַנְכֶם אֲנִי
עֹשֶׂה, בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל:
כִּי אִם-לְשֵׁם-קָדְשִׁי
אֲשֶׁר חִלַּלְתֶּם,
בַּגּוֹיִם אֲשֶׁר-בָּאתֶם
שָׁם. 22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel: Thus saith the Lord GOD: I do not this for your sake,
O house of Israel, but for My holy name, which ye have profaned among the nations, whither ye came."
When I read the Old Testament I see a nation that has suffered and was
scattered because of their sins and unbelief. The suffering servant of Isaiah 52:13 ff was innocent and righteous.
Israel is not righteous as the following article I posted earlier confirms:
"1. The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer.
Israel is never described as sinless. Isaiah 1:4 says of the nation: "Alas sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity. A
brood of evildoers, children who are corrupters!" He then goes on in the same chapter to characterize Judah as Sodom, Jerusalem
as a harlot, and the people as those whose hands are stained with blood (verses 10, 15, and 21). What a far cry from the innocent
and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah 53 who had "done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth!"
ד הוֹי
גּוֹי חֹטֵא, עַם כֶּבֶד
עָוֹן--זֶרַע מְרֵעִים,
בָּנִים מַשְׁחִיתִים;
עָזְבוּ אֶת-יְהוָה, נִאֲצוּ
אֶת-קְדוֹשׁ יִשְׂרָאֵל--נָזֹרוּ
אָחוֹר. 4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evil-doers, children
that deal corruptly; they have forsaken the LORD, they have contemned the Holy One of Israel, they are turned away backward.
(Isaiah 1)
But still many Jews try to pretend they are the righteous servant of
Isaiah 53.
The Jews of the NT crucified the saviour as they had always done with
Gods messengers. (1 Kings 19:10; Acts 2:36 ; 1 Thess. 2:14,15)
Raine goes on:
Isaiah 53:1 Who would have believed our report? And to whom hath the
arm of YHWH been revealed?
Now stop a second. All of a sudden the person speaking has become plural
("OUR report"). Who is speaking? It can’t be Isaiah, since he’s just one guy. Notice the verse before (52:15)
where the nations and the kings are startled. Isaiah could be (and most likely, is) talking for the gentile kings who are
in shock. This would answer the questions that are given. "Who would believe what we have heard?" No one! "And to whom and
the arm of the YHWH been revealed?" To us, the gentile nations, in seeing the prior state and redemption of Israel (52:10)!"
End of Quote
BJ:
The reasoning here of Raine escapes me. This seems to be the reasoning
of someone who has already made up their mind that Isaiah 53 cannot be speaking of Messiah.
Though a greek word Raine, is comitting eisegesis here, reading into
the text.
You don't just go back until you find something that fits your preconceived
notions and apply it where you want.
How does saying 'Our' exclude the one saying it?
When I say we, am I not including myself?
Raine goes back until she can find a meaning that she can attach to
fifty three.
Why couldn't Isaiah have been talking about him and the other prophets
that speak of Messiah.
Raine has taken 'who hath believed our report' to 'Who would believe
what we have heard'
The lengths people go to in order to justify their unbelief.
"The prophet speaking is Isaiah himself, who says the sufferer was punished
for "the transgression of my people," according to verse 8. Who are the people of Isaiah? Israel. So the sufferer of
Isaiah 53 suffered for Israel. So how could he be Israel?"
This is not to exclude Gentiles. I know I was wicked and have accepted
the suffering servants 'wounds for my transgressions'
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there
is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare
his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God..." (Romans 3)
BJ Maxwell 3/27/2006
Continuing my refutation of an Unbelieving Jew's website concerning Isaiah 53
Raine Miller, the author of this site was and probably still a Karaite Jew
as her own confession will show:
If she has once again converted to something else, then she is not a Karaite
Jew only in the way that a person that consistently promotes the Watchtower site and literature may not be a Jehovahs
Witness.
I'm sure she might consider deleting this evidence but since honesty is something
that she values in others, I would advise against it.
Also my purpose is not to promote groups that do to Christians what the Jews did to
Christians in the NT.
I'm interested in promoting groups that welcome intelligent interaction.
Because of the lack of intelligent interaction in the so-called Jesus debates group,
I have decided to critique a Karaite/Unbelieving Jews' website that has kept the insults to a dull roar.
Still, I see that showing disrespect for the Christian message is not beyond
her.
You would have thought that being the daughter of an ordained Baptist Minister
would have taught her better.
She says: "A man of the field is not someone who has only been farming for the past
couple of days but who has sweated and toiled on the field for a long time. So a 'man of pain' cannot refer to just
a day or a couple of hours of pain.
Now these verses cannot apply to Yeshua since he was loved and adored by the people,
attracted a huge following, almost got crushed by some of the crowds that wanted to touch him, where a woman with an issue
of blood could touch the hem of his garment and be made whole, according to the story (Matt 4:25; Luke 2:32; 4:14-15; 7:16;
8:4; John 12:11, 42). He only suffered the last couple of days of his life."
End of Quote.
She chooses to refer to the times where Christ was adored by the people.
But lets look at the Rrrrrrrrrrrrest of the Story.
, וְכַשֹּׁרֶשׁ
מֵאֶרֶץ צִיָּה--לֹא-תֹאַר
לוֹ, וְלֹא הָדָר; וְנִרְאֵהוּ
וְלֹא-מַרְאֶה, וְנֶחְמְדֵהוּ.
2 For he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground; he had no form nor comeliness, that we should
look upon him, nor beauty that we should delight in him. (Isaiah 53:2)
Since Raine wants to refer to the New Testament Jesus as not fulfilling the suffering
of Isaiah 53, she should at least read to the whole New Covenant account not just parts.
Jesus was born in a stable, raised by poor parents, pursued by Herod, rejected by
men, tortured and crucified...
The suffering and sacrifice of Jesus Christ cannot be measured in time but must
consider who he suffered in place of.
Because he suffered and died for many not just a few, His suffering and
death was very great and heavy.
| ו כֻּלָּנוּ כַּצֹּאן
תָּעִינוּ, אִישׁ לְדַרְכּוֹ
פָּנִינוּ; וַיהוָה הִפְגִּיעַ
בּוֹ, אֵת עֲוֹן כֻּלָּנוּ.
|
6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and the LORD
hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all. |
| יא מֵעֲמַל נַפְשׁוֹ,
יִרְאֶה יִשְׂבָּע--בְּדַעְתּוֹ
יַצְדִּיק צַדִּיק עַבְדִּי,
לָרַבִּים; וַעֲוֹנֹתָם,
הוּא יִסְבֹּל. |
11 Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his
knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear. (Isaiah 53)
|
Imagine this, the sinfulness of mankind against an eternal God requiring an eternal
sacrifice by the eternal Word the magnitude of suffering of which we have no equal.
More on this later.
"Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give
his life a ransom for many." Matthew 20:28
Notice what happened during those few hours.
" 26:57 And they that had laid hold on Jesus led him away
to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled. ... 26:67 Then did they
spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands, 68 Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee? 27:1 WHEN
the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death: ... 2 And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor. 26
Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified. ... 28
And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe. 29 And when
they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and
a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews 30
And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head. 31
And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify
him." Matthew 26:47 - 27:31
"Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common hall, and gathered unto
him the whole band of soldiers. 28 And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe. 29
And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee
before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews 30 And they spit upon him, and took the reed,
and smote him on the head. 31 And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and
put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him." Matthew 27:27-31
Here Peter recognizes that Christ fulfilled Isaiah 53
"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to
sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."
2 Corinthians 8:9
"For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet
for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich."
Raine goes on: "Please note that unlike some Christian translations, the verbs are
in the past tense. The gentile nations are still speaking." (End of Quote)
I have already shown previously that it is Isaiah and the other prophets that are
speaking and sinful and unbelieving Israel is being contrasted to Messiah in this passage.
The claim that Isaiah is only speaking in the past tense has no defense.
"Sometimes it is claimed that the messianic prophecies cited by Christians are in
the past tense. Therefore, it is said, they cannot refer to a future, coming Messiah.
This is an invalid argument. There is no such thing as "tense" in biblical Hebrew.
(Modern Hebrew, on the other hand, does have tenses.) Biblical Hebrew is not a "tense" language. Modern grammarians recognize
that it is an "aspectual" language. This means that the same form of a verb can be translated as either past, present, or
future depending on the context and various grammatical cues. The most well known grammatical cue is the "vav-consecutive"
that makes an imperfective verb to refer to the past."
For the rest of the article go to:
Suffered for a few hours?
Isaiah speaking past tense?
Not so!!!
8 Everyone living on earth
will worship it except those whose names are written in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb slaughtered before the world
was founded. (Revelation 13)
BJ Maxwell 3/04/2006
