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Pantribulationism: Are There Two Programs Going On?
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 "Here we see that neither Jew nor Gentile can fulfill their ultimate purpose without each other. We also see that neither will fulfill their destinies unless they remain distinct. As stated, the way that we become one in marriage is not by trying to make the woman into a man, or the man into a woman, but by the two distinctly different genders uniting in a common purpose. Because of this, it is essential for the church to recognize, honor, and help preserve the unique identity of the Messianic Movement, and vice versa. Both need to be influenced by
the other, but neither should try to absorb the other." (Rick Joyner, The Messianic Movement)

 

Warning: If you are not able to focus for very long or don't have more than five minutes to read the following, then this message will be too much for you to handle.
 
If not and you want to cut to the chase then just scroll down to the bottom and read the two last statements I make.
 
The Next thing in the endless debate about the timing of the rapture that I wanted to look at is toward the bottom of this chart, from the tribulation forces website.
 
It is really foundational to understanding why Dispensational Pretribbers differ from Posttribbers and others.
 
It is the question of what groups of people are being dealt with at the rapture and second coming.
 
According to the pretrib model down below, it is the Body of Christ that is raptured prior to the tribulation/Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:7), and believing and unbelieving Israel is dealt with at the second coming.
 
Posttribbers want to cut to the chase and don't make this distinction.
 
Take a look at what is in red in the chart below.
 
 

Rapture Second Coming
Jesus coming FOR His Church. John 14:1-3, 1 Thess 4:14-17 Jesus coming WITH His Church Col 3:4, Zech 14:5, Jude 14, Rev 19:14
Caught up with Him in the air 1 Thess 4:13-18 Jesus' feet touch the earth Zech 14:4, Rev:11-21
Christians taken first, unbelievers are left behind. 1 Thess 4:13-18 Wicked are taken first, the righteous (Tribulation saints) are left behind.Matt 13:28-30
Purpose: To present the Church to Himself and to the Father 2 Cor 11:2, Rev. 19:6-9 Purpose: To execute judgment on earth and set up His Kingdom Jude 14-15,Rev 19:11-21, Zech 14:3-4
MARRIAGE: Marriage of Lamb in heaven after the Rapture WAR: Marriage is followed by war on earth at the 2nd coming
Happens in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (too fast for eyes to see) 1 Cor 15:52 Slow coming, people will see Him come back.Zech 12:10 Matt 24:30, Rev 1:7
Only Christians will see Him 1 John 3:2, 1 Cor 15:52 Every eye will see Him Rev. 1:7
Jesus descends with a shout(for resurrection) 1 Thess 4:16 No shout mentioned Rev. 19:11-21
A resurrection takes place 1 Thess 4:13-18, 1 Cor 15:51-54 No resurrection mentioned Rev 1:7, 19:11-21, Zech 12:10, 14:4-5
Can happen at any time Rev 3:3, 1 Thess 5:4-6 Occurs at end of 7 years of Tribulation Dan 9:24-27Matt 24:29-30, 2 Thess 2:3-8
No angels are sent to gather (resurrected people don't need angels to help them) Angels sent forth to gather people together for judgment Matt 13:39, 41, 49, 24:31, 25:31, 2 Thess 1:7-10
Spirits of those dead in Christ return with Jesus to receive their their resurrected bodies 1 Thess 4:14-16 Christians return with Jesus in already resurrected bodies riding on white horses. Rev 19:11-21
Jesus does not return on a white horse Jesus returns on a white horse Rev 19:11
For the Church only (those in Christ) 1 Thess 4:14-17 For redeemed Israel & Gentiles Rom 11:25-27, Matt 25:31-46
A message of hope and comfort 1 Thess 4:18, Titus 2:13, 1 John 3:3 A message of judgment Joel 3:12-16, Rev 19:11-21, Mal 4:5
 

http://www.tribulationforces.com/tfcdr/whypretrib.shtml

 

The reason I believe it is futile to discuss the timing of the rapture is because there are more important things to talk about like Salvation by grace through faith in JC, The Trinity and Deity of Jesus Christ, Being Ready whenever He comes or We go, Knowing our Theology and Soteriology before we go to Eschatology.

 

A pretrib dispie should know that it is of no use to discuss the timing of the rapture if the foundational questions are not answered first:

 

Who is Christ?

 

How Are We Saved?

 

How could one even have the necessary understanding to debate the timing of the rapture, if they don't even have the Holy Spirit, which comes only when one is saved?

 

Christian Behaviour:

 

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing....Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;" (1 Corinthians 13) 

 

Are There Two Programs mentioned in the NT, One For Israel and One for the Body of Christ?

 

OR

 

Is it all supposed to somehow be rolled up into one huge lump of dough?

 

What good is it for someone to know when Christ is coming but not know who Christ is or how to be saved?

 

This is why the typical Dispie and Posttribber shouldn't start at eschatology, he or she should focus on Theology (Study of God) and Soteriology (Salvation), then once that is settled then the rest will follow suit.

 

Others often see no need to settle those matters first, and lose patience with those that want to.

 

For more information on what I am talking about go to my website at:

 

http://cuf5.tripod.com/id68.html

 

AND

 

http://cuf5.tripod.com/id104.html

 

Now I want to look at the verses that the Chart above talks about:

 

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which SLEEP IN JESUS will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent F10 them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the DEAD IN CHRIST shall rise first: 17 Then WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess. 4:14-17)

 

This is the church being 'caught up'

 

 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (Romans 11)

 

Here we see that the program with Israel was not ended or mixed with the Body of Christ, it was delayed, 'until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in'.

 

For more information on this go to my website at:

 

Wanna Know A Secret

 

http://cuf5.tripod.com/id58.html

 

I certainly would have added more scripture to this chart had I created it but this is a good place to start.

 

Now if one chooses to believe that there are no real distinctions here between Israel and the church or that there are distinctions between them in everything but eschatology, that is their priviledge.

 

Who Knows They may even be right that THEY are supposed to stay and assist Israel in her journey.

 

Rick Joyner, author of several books and not even a dispie believes that there are two movements out there, even now.

 

He says:

 

 "Here we see that neither Jew nor Gentile can fulfill their ultimate purpose without each other. We also see that neither will fulfill their destinies unless they remain distinct. As stated, the way that we become one in marriage is not by trying to make the woman into a man, or the man into a woman, but by the two distinctly different genders uniting in a common purpose. Because of this, it is essential for the church to recognize, honor, and help preserve the unique identity of the Messianic Movement, and vice versa. Both need to be influenced by
the other, but neither should try to absorb the other." (The Messianic Movement)

 

The Posttribbers have some valid arguments when they point to New Jerusalem and wonder where the body of Christ is supposed to be living during that time.

 

AND

 

That Dispies need to have two of everything, one for the church and one for the Jew.

 

Two Comings: One to the air and a second one to the earth

 

A First Resurrection mentioned in the book of Revelation but resurrections before that.

 

A Last trump of the Rapture and the Seventh Trump of Revelation.

 

However, the Dispie is not completely stumped by these points.

 

Once one realizes that even the OT scriptures seemed to be pointing toward One First Coming of Messiah though there would be two. (Isaiah 9:6,7; Zechariah 9:9,10)

 

AND

 

That there is One Second Coming but two aspects to it. One to the air, then continuing on to earth seven years later.

 

AND

 

Resurrections have to be considered in light of the time periods they occur in.

In other words the 'First Resurrection' of Revelation is not the First Resurrection mentioned in Scripture and the seventh trump of the Tribulation might not be the last trump before the Tribulation.

 

However, for the non dispie these sometimes seem to be trivial points that only confuse the average student, the Dispie looks at this as a foundation that once established helps one make sense of it all.

 

The Posttribber has to wonder why non Jews would have to be concerned about why we (the church) would have to 'Pray that our Flight Not Be on the Sabbath.' (Matthew 24)

 

How does the Postribber reconcile the salvation Peter gave to the Jews (Acts 2:38 ff), with the salvation message given to the Gentiles (Acts 10:44-48; Acts 16:31)

 

The Dispie needs to wonder why it takes so long to 'Rightly Divide the Word of Truth', even longer to get others to understand what the heck he is saying and then a lifetime to find another dispie willing to join him in his discussions.

 

After twenty five years of studying this, it now appears crystal clear to me but when it was first presented to me I didn't understand anything I was hearing.

 

This rather than being a testament to my endurance just may be a testament to my thick skull.

 

Let me give you a tip about a shortcut, Just ask yourself whether you can reconcile all the scriptures, so that it can all be lumped together. If you cannot then ask yourself whether there are two programs going on.

 

Whatever your answer make sure you and those around you know the essentials.

 

                                               BJ Maxwell

 

 

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