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Christianity Under Fire

Pantribulationism: Should I Stay or Should I Go?
Study In Acts
Jesus In Genesis
Behemoth, Leviathan And Dragons, Oh My!
The Foolish Man's Guide To Confounding The Wise
A Defense of Individual Election unto Salvation & Critique of Absolute Corporate Election?
Group Think Or Whosoever Will Pt. 3
Paul's Purpose At Athens: Becoming All Things To All People
Personhood And Free Will
Scriptures Calvinist's Misinterpret
Resistance Is Futile!
You're a Hopeless Replacement Theologian If You:
Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth
You Know You're a Preterist if: Part 2
Are You Thankful For What You Have?
Top Ten Signs You Are a Fundamentalist Christian?
Getting Involved With Coffeehouse Ministry
A Few of My Projects
Next Subject
A Year in the Life
Maxwell's Musings
Is the Church, 'The Elect'?
Pope Apologizes For Telling the Truth
Catholic Catechism Paves the Way For Evolution
You Are A Hopeless Liberal If You:
Clean Slate
Three Column Chart
Ultra Dispensationalism: Scriptural or Not?
Group Think or Whosoever Will?
Chronological Chart of New Testament
You Might Be A Closet Dispie If:
Body of Christ versus Israel
The Mark of the Beast: Is it Literal?
You Know You're A Preterist If:
You Know You're a Preterist if: Part Three
The Comings of Christ: The How, When and Where
Groupthink and Cliques in the Church
Focus on the Family or on God
Cult Aware
Open Door Fellowship OR Come As We Are Ministries?
Transubstantiation or Unsubstantiated: If The Plain Sense Makes Sense...
DaVinci Code: Was Christ's Divinity and the Bible invented at the Council of Nicea?
Plain Sense Interpretation/P'shat: Christs Comings
Isaiah 53: Human Sacrifice?
Isaiah 53: Christ Has Risen!!
Who Hath Believed Our Report?
Isaiah 53: Christ Our Passover Lamb
Isaiah 53: Messianic Prophecies Refuted?
Chart comparing Israel to Messiah
Isaiah 53: The Suffering Messiah
Bible Chart: Does the Bible conflict on Salvation Messages?
Christs Coming and Time Gaps
Got Charts!
Are There Two Programs?
When Did the Church Begin?
When Did the Church Begin Pt. 2
Is America Cursed?
How and Why Christianity is Under Fire
Was Mary a Perpetual Virgin?
Tribulation or Jacob's Trouble?
Jewish Wannabes and the Holidays
Christmas Under Fire: When Christians Attack
Is Celebrating Christmas Scriptural?
Was Iraq a Just War?
Category 7: The End of the World
If It Believes, Then Waddles and Quacks like a Christian it is a....
Why Homosexuality Should Be Confronted and Exposed
The Doctrine Of Eternal Security-Can You Lose Your Salvation?
Does the Soul Sleep?
Did Jews Kill Jesus?...Hear What Some Jews Have to Say
Some Unscriptural Teachings of the Catholic Church
Arguments That Catholics Use
Pantribulationism: Are There Two Programs Going On?
Before and After
Pantribulationism: What A Day That Will Be!!!!
Definite Article Theology: The Way
Pantribulationism: Extrabiblical Nonsense
My Old Ship, the USS Shreveport Assisting Hurricane Victims
Pantribulationism: Should I Stay or Should I Go?
Trinity of God and Trichotomy of man: Definite Article Theology
Definite Article Theology
Pantribulationism: Blessed Hope and Glorious Appearing
Pantribulationism: The Departure
Pantribulationism: It will all pan out in the end
Straining Out Gnats, Majoring on the Minors
Jewish Wannabes and Eschaholics
When Jewish Wannabes Attack What They Don't Understand
How Jewish Wannabes Attack and How to Identify Them
Historical Method and Homosexuality
If the Plain Sense Makes Sense: Christ's Coming
If the Plain Sense Makes Sense: Evolution
The Silliness of Jack Chick
Inspirational and Patriotic Songs
Communism and Islam -vs- the Faith of America's Founding Fathers
Bridging the Generation Gap
Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth
Let's Worship the Lord
Faith Under Fire Television Show and Website
Faith Under Fire/Do We Worship the Same God?
Arrogant or Convinced?
Warning Signs of Dispensationalism?
Good News: How To Fight Terrorism
Prophecies Yet To Be Fulfilled: Zechariah 12:10-14
Are You Happy?
When Jewish Wannabes Attack the Bible
Why Jewish Wannabes Attack
The Masters List
You're A Hopeless ....
Preterism Versus Dispensationalism
What's Love Got To Do With It?
When Jewish Wannabes Attack!
Preterism and Calvinism?
Who Do Men Say That I Am?
Signs You Are Doing Something Right
Ivory Tower Theologians and more about me
Satan the Counterfeiter
Saved By Race or By Grace?
Wanna Know Some Secrets?
Distortions of the Resurrection
Apostles Today?
Message and Ministry of Paul compared to the twelve
Maxwell House...Good For Your Desktop
The Feminization of Christianity
Absurd World Views
Religion versus Relationship
The Mysteries Revealed
Replacement Theology
How did the Tribes and Books get Lost?
Catholics, Cliques and Cults
New Age Movement
Should Christians Observe the Sabbath?
The Power of One
Be Thankful
Group Think and the Jew
You Must Be Born Again!!
Tribute to a Friend
Who's That Babe in the Manger: Does it matter
President Bush and the Movie: Unbreakable
Having a Form of Godliness
The Natural Supernatural Connection
Spiritually Challenged Skeptics
Speaking or Praying to the Dead
Eternally Insecure?
The Preterist's False Hope
Apostolic Succession Catholic Style
Predestination or Free Will
The Foolish Confounding the Wise
About Me
Scripture Twisting: Reading into the text
Scripture Twisting: The Figurative Fallacy
So Deep A Child Could Understand
The Apostle Paul
About Us
Requirements For Messiah
Small Groups or the Purpose Driven Church?
Mile High Ministries or Miles Apart Ministries
The Omnipresence and Incarnation of God
Is Jesus the Messiah?
Extrabiblical Nonsense
Blank Page
Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?
Focus on the Family?
Motherhood, Fatherhood or Discipleship?
The Watchtower and Jehovah's Witnesses
What is Love
That They May Be One
Suffering Servant
Article Page
Interview Page
Reviews Page
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The Moral of the Story; Don't waste your Life debating the timing of the rapture. Just know that it is coming and we need to be ready for His coming or our going, whatever comes first.

Should I Stay or Should I go now?


As I promised I will refute arguments from both the pre and posttrib camp.

The purpose is to show the futility of arguing the timing of the rapture when there are much more important things to discuss.

I pray NOT that thou shouldest take them out of the world (ek tou kosmou), but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. (Evil One) 16 They are not OF THE WORLD, even as I am not OF THE WORLD. (ek tou kosmou),

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (John 17)

These verses are used by posttribbers to prove (at least in their minds), that we will not be removed before the Tribulation.

Posttribbers like to accuse Pretribbers of escapism, but the question is not whether they want to escape The Tribulation, reasonable people do.

I think that if in the Tribulation folks were given the choice of
whether to stay or to go, most of them would go and they wouldn't be
condemned for it.

Presently Katrina, a category five hurricane is hitting the coast.

Certainly no one could be faulted for wanting to get away from that.

The real question is whether God wants us to spend most of our LIVES figuring out whether we are going to or not.

The obvious problems with using the scriptures above (John 17) to prove posttribulationism is:

1) He was talking to the disciples because he goes on to continue to pray for the oneness of those that would believe on christ through their (the disciples) word.

2) Obviously both post and pretribbers agree that eventually we will be taken OUT OF THE WORLD, (ek tou kosmou) so these verses cannot be an argument for never taking them out of the world. In fact Christ in the same chapter goes on to say:


"Father, I WILL THAT THEY ALSO, whom thou hast given me, be with me WHERE I AM; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. "

So he eventually wants us to be where he is in his glory, the glory our preexistent Lord had with the Father belore the world began.

Next verses say:


But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and TOOK THEM ALL AWAY; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. (Matthew 24)

In the past pretribbers have used these verses to teach a rapture of saints while the rest were left behind.

Larry Norman wrote a song called, "I wish we'd all been ready' , where he used these scriptures.

However, this chapter is really dealing with the second coming of Christ after the tribulation, so this is really what happens during or after the tribulation not before.

But rather than being an argument for a posttribulation rapture, it really brings into question whether it is speaking of a rapture at all.

Reading the context of this verse, it compares the ones that are 'taken away' to those that were 'taken away' in the flood.

If we read these verses closely we see that the ones TAKEN AWAY in Noah's flood were the wicked ones.

So rather than a rapture this looks like judgment.

So really pre and posttribbers have alternated through time in thinking that these verses support their particular views.

Revelation says:

Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall CAST SOME OF YOU IN PRISON, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have TRIBULATION TEN DAYS: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. (Revelation 2)

Used by Posttribbers, still there are potential problems with this verse as well:

1) Why are only SOME of them cast into prison to be tried if this is THE Tribulation

2) How does TEN DAYS translate to seven years.

In this present dispensation those that are his will be faithful unto death, in this scenario only when they have been faithful unto death will they receive a crown of life.

Presently, we will endure to the end. (Philippians 1:6;2:12,13; Romans 5)

In the Tribulation, only those that endure to the end will be saved. (Matthew 24)

However, if you do not see a distinction between what is spoken to Tribulation saints and what is spoken to the body of Christ OR what is spoken of Tribulation versus The Tribulation, then you will not accept the distinctions being made here.

Often Posttribbers do not want to distinguish between Tribulation and The Tribulation. Again, the importance of the definite article (the), in the greek and english is important here.


10 BECAUSE THOU HAS KEPT the word of my patience, I also will KEEP THEE FROM THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION, which SHALL COME UPON ALL THE WORLD, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Revelation 3)

This particular temptation/trial shall come upon the whole world and I don't think that the Roman Empire of that day qualifies as 'ALL THE WORLD.'

Pretribbers have used this verse but this has problems as well.

1) This makes keeping the word of my patience as a requirement to being kept from the hour of temptation.

2) We don't clearly know whether the Philadelphian church is the church that will be present right before THE tribulation or not.

Notice, many have endured much tribulation but only in the end will there be THE Tribulation.

Next verses:

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a TRUMPET talking with me; which said, COME UP HITHER, and I will shew thee things which must be HEREAFTER. (Revelation 4)

This verse is used by pretribbers to show the rapture of the church and its disappearance from the earth.

Pretribbers believe that the Tribulation (Jacob's Trouble) mainly deals with Israel not the body of Christ.

These verses are circumstantial at best and cannot solely be used to prove a pretrib rapture.

The first three chapters are about the church and the church is not mentioned after that until the end of the book of Revelation.

However, this is mostly an argument from silence, and this kind of argument will not convince the unconvinceable.

The Term 'Come Up Hither' Was speaking of John, though some would argue that it has a wider application.

Also it says come up hither and I will shew thee things which must be HEREAFTER.

It could be:

after the church, which doesn't necessarily after the church is removed.

These scriptures are circumstantial at best and argue from silence.

This verse also speaks of a trumpet but this is a 'voice as a trumpet' and it is talking to John.

This doesn't sound exactly like the Trumpet at the Rapture.

We now know that the coming of Christ was prophesied in the OT, and that it was really two comings, one as a suffering servant and a future one as a reigning king. We only know that by looking back.

Many OT prophecies spoke of both comings together.

The rejection of Messiah by Israel played a role in this.

In his future coming, there may be two aspects to his Second Coming as well, we will have to stay tuned.

Here is the reason that you cannot argue eschatology over doctrine and Christian behaviour.

The Pretribber typically believes that there are two programs in the NT and the Posttribber believes there is mainly one.

The Pretribbin Dispie believes that there is a program for believing Israel and it is mainly in prophecy, and then there is a program for the body of Christ and is related to the mysteries that Paul speaks of.

The Posttribber, if he is consistent believes that these two groups are intertwined right through the tribulation.

If a two program person argues with a one program person on the end times, it will be futile because one is applying verses to both groups while another may be applying them to only one of the groups.

For more on this go to:

Dispensationalism and Stuff in the CUF Group.

The Moral of the Story; Don't waste your Life debating the timing of the rapture. Just know that it is coming and we need to be ready for His coming or our going, whatever comes first.

The Question is not whether you know when He is coming but do you know to be ready for his coming.

The hope of a future coming purifies us, not the hope of HIS exact timing. (1 John 3:2)

If you want to know what some of what to watch out for as his coming or your going draws near read First Timothy Four.

The Apostasy is happening even now, are you defending the faith or just shining your armour and fighting those that disagree with you on the timing of the rapture.

First Timothy talks about those departing from THE Faith and going after the doctrines of demons and seducing spirits which:

1) Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron

2) Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats

This is only part of what to watch out for. 

Also read: Philippians 4; Romans 4;

Nothing about those the didn't know the exact timing of the Lord's coming.

BJ Maxwell