Don't forget to read the end of this message which describes what a
day it will be like when we see the Lord.
Pretrib Arguments: First the chart I posted below is from the Tribulation
forces site and the link is at the bottom.
What I want to look at whether the saints are coming or going at Christ's
second coming and whether the arguments for saints marching in or out are legitimate from either side of the debate.
I will deal with the first section of this chart that is in red, then in
future messages deal with the rest.
But first one Pretrib website says:
- Place of the church in the book of Revelation.
None of the key New Testament passages that deal with the Tribulation
mention the presence of the church."
Presence of the church:
The church not being mentioned from chapter four to twenty two of Revelation is an interesting point that Pretribbers make.
However, this is an argument from silence, and that is not a good argument
If I were to disappear and no longer speak in my groups, one should not automatically
think I was raptured.
I could just be taking a really long nap. Its those Catholics, they just
wear me out.
Or, I could just be getting tired of ninety nine percent of the Christian
members in this group not responding to the well thought out and brilliant messages that I post. ;-D
At least the Catholics show me that they are reading what I am posting by
voicing their disagreements.
This ought to at least give them a few less days in Hell, Oh, i mean purgatory.
Meanwhile back at the farm:
It is interesting that the term church is only mentioned at the beginning
and at the end of the book of Revelation.
The first section in red from the chart, that makes distinctions between
the rapture and the second coming provides the following scriptures is what I want to look at. I will look at the rest of
the chart later.
R - Rapture of the Church versus the return of Christ
Set the events
of the Rapture parallel to the Second Coming and you decide:
|Jesus coming FOR His Church. John 14:1-3, 1 Thess
||Jesus coming WITH His Church Col 3:4, Zech 14:5, Jude
14, Rev 19:14|
|Caught up with Him in the air 1 Thess 4:13-18
||Jesus' feet touch the earth Zech 14:4, Rev:11-21|
|Christians taken first, unbelievers are left behind.
1 Thess 4:13-18
||Wicked are taken first, the righteous (Tribulation
saints) are left behind.Matt 13:28-30|
|Purpose: To present the Church to Himself and to the Father 2 Cor 11:2,
||Purpose: To execute judgment on earth and set up His Kingdom Jude 14-15,Rev
19:11-21, Zech 14:3-4|
|MARRIAGE: Marriage of Lamb in heaven after the Rapture
||WAR: Marriage is followed by war on earth at the 2nd coming|
|Happens in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (too fast for eyes
to see) 1 Cor 15:52
||Slow coming, people will see Him come back.Zech 12:10 Matt 24:30, Rev 1:7|
|Only Christians will see Him 1 John 3:2, 1 Cor 15:52
||Every eye will see Him Rev. 1:7|
|Jesus descends with a shout(for resurrection) 1 Thess 4:16
||No shout mentioned Rev. 19:11-21|
|A resurrection takes place 1 Thess 4:13-18, 1 Cor 15:51-54
||No resurrection mentioned Rev 1:7, 19:11-21, Zech 12:10, 14:4-5|
|Can happen at any time Rev 3:3, 1 Thess 5:4-6
||Occurs at end of 7 years of Tribulation Dan 9:24-27Matt 24:29-30, 2 Thess
|No angels are sent to gather (resurrected people don't need angels to help
||Angels sent forth to gather people together for judgment Matt 13:39, 41,
49, 24:31, 25:31, 2 Thess 1:7-10|
|Spirits of those dead in Christ return with Jesus to receive
their their resurrected bodies 1 Thess 4:14-16
||Christians return with Jesus in already resurrected bodies riding
on white horses. Rev 19:11-21|
|Jesus does not return on a white horse
||Jesus returns on a white horse Rev 19:11|
|For the Church only (those in Christ)
1 Thess 4:14-17
||For redeemed Israel & Gentiles Rom 11:25-27, Matt
|A message of hope and comfort 1 Thess 4:18, Titus 2:13, 1
||A message of judgment Joel 3:12-16, Rev 19:11-21, Mal 4:5|
Me and scripture:
1 Let not your
heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto
myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14)
Here he will be receiving us unto himself not coming to where we are.
14 For if we
believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain
unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and
the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are
alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS, to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: and so shall
we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another
with these words. (1 Thess. 4)
Here we meet him in the air not at the Mount of Olives with the Jews fleeing
4 When Christ,
who is our life, SHALL APPEAR, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. (Colossians 3)
Here his appearance is associated with the Second Coming. My message entitled;
'Pantribulationism: The Blessed Hope and Glorious Appearing' looks at the definite article in Greek and makes a distinction
between 'blessed hope/Rapture' and 'glorious appearing/Second Coming', though the use of only one definite article in 2 Thessalonians
2; connects 'coming of our Lord Jesus Christ ' with 'our gathering together unto him '. This does not explain whether his
coming here is to the air or to the Mount of Olives.
I hope you can already see that when considering all the details, and they
are many, of the Pre versus Post debate that we can get bogged down in the miry clay of delapidation and forget the important
What we can conclude is that we need to be ready when he comes or we go,
whatever comes first and whether His coming or our going comes first is determined not by scripture but by God's will for
I could get hit by a car today so for me, my going would come before his
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before
Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and
there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And YE SHALL FLEE TO THE VALLEY OF THE MOUNTAINS,
for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the
days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD MY GOD SHALL COME, AND
ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE. (Zechariah 14)
Here Christ comes down to earth with his saints, plants his feet on the Mount
of Olives and the Jewish believers, 'flee to the valley of the mountains', just as they are told to do in Matthew 24:15-19.
And ENOCH ALSO, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying,
Behold, THE LORD COMETH WITH TEN THOUSAND OF HIS SAINTS, (Jude 1:14)
Notice who is prophesying here, Enoch, the one who was raptured in the OT.
He is the one that prophesies of these saints coming with the Lord.
So now rather than trying to speculate as to whether the second coming and
the rapture are the same event, imagine a vision of ten thousand of his saints coming with the Lord.
What an Awesome Day That will be.
Now it would be hard for anyone to argue against the distinctions here between
the rapture and the second coming of Christ.
Still, we do not know for certain whether the distinction in time between
the two events is seven years or seven minutes do we?
Could it be possible that Christ receives his chiluns to himself then shortly
afterwards these chiluns descend with him to earth to judge the wicked and set up camp near or above the New Jerusalem?
The thought makes me quite dizzy and a rapture 3 and 1/2 or 7 years before
his descent to the Mount of Olives keeps me from losing my equilibrium.
The seven minute theory would require us to make a U Turn as soon as we say
Good Day to Jesus.
However, a rapture and second coming only separated by minutes is still possible.
Posttribbers want to point out terms like 'saints' and 'remnant of her seed'
to prove that the church is still present during the Tribulation.
However, the term, 'church' is not used between chapters four and twenty
two of Revelation.
Notice that the following verses from Revelation, Matthew and Daniel speak
of the same thing and these events have to do with Jewish Believers.
Abominations that make desolate, sacrifices and oblations ceasing, fleeing
from Judea, not fleeing on the Sabbath are only things that a Jewish believer of the Messianic Movement might be concerned
about or a Jewish Wannabe that thinks everything having to do with Israel really applies to the believer.
So all indications are that when the 'remnant of her seed' or 'saints' are
mentioned in Revelation that it is either speaking of Jewish believers or saints made so during the tribulation and therefore
a part of the Kingdom message, similar to how Gentile believers were tagalongs in the gospels. (Matthew 10:5ff)
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the
remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Revelation 12)
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the
midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations
he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Daniel
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by
Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17
Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18
Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19
And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: (Matthew 24)
And YE SHALL FLEE TO THE VALLEY OF THE MOUNTAINS, for the valley of
the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah
king of Judah: and the LORD MY GOD SHALL COME, AND ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE. (Zechariah 14)
Catholics want us to believe that the woman of Revelation twelve is Mary,
but don't want to believe the woman/Queen/Whore of Revelation seventeen and eighteen is Rome.
What one thinks of the woman in chapter twelve can influence who they think
the 'remnant of her seed' is.
If it is Mary then we may assume that 'remnant of her seed' is
Catholics or Christians whether they be Jew or Gentile.
However, this interpretation can only really come by reading extrabiblical
nonsense into Mary's role.
If it is speaking of Israel then this may be talking about Jewish believers,
and I think a comparison of the verses above prove that point.
The following verses make me think that it is future and talking about Israel:
"And the woman fled
into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore
days." vv. 6
"And to the woman
were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for
a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."
Both of these scriptural references give time periods that equal 3 and 1/2
years which is halfway through the seven year tribulation, which by the way is when the covenant with Israel is broken, the
abomination of desolation occurs and when Israel, not Mary or the Catholic church are to flee. (Matt. 24:15-19 ; Zechariah
14; Daniel 9:24-27)
Catholics and others have typically taken what applies to Israel and applied
it to the church. This is called Replacement Theology and has contributed to the murder of millions of Jews.
Lord make us ready for your coming or our going, whatever comes first, in
the name of Jesus, Amen.
Rather than debating the timing of the rapture, meditate on what a day that
will be when we see the Lord.
Phil Keaggy sung a song that I want you to think about called 'What A Day'.
Wish I could sing it for you but the Lyrics will have to do.
What A Day (Phil Keaggy)
When I get Home I will see all
The holy men I read about.
John, James, Luke, and Paul
And brother Tom without a doubt.
And I do believe there will be
King David at the harp
song of praise with every chord.
What a sight to see, the redeemed and
The angels gathered round worshiping the Lord.
a day that will be
Oh what a day that will be!
When we get Home, our Eternal Home
There'll be no more sick and
No one is sad, no one is alone
And there will be no more crying.
He will wipe away every tear
And put a smile upon their faces.
What a happy day when we see
Our Lord in Paradise
King of Kings.
What a day that will be
Oh what a day that will be!
What a day, what a day,
What a day that