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Christianity Under Fire

Pantribulationism: What A Day That Will Be!!!!
Study In Acts
Jesus In Genesis
Behemoth, Leviathan And Dragons, Oh My!
The Foolish Man's Guide To Confounding The Wise
A Defense of Individual Election unto Salvation & Critique of Absolute Corporate Election?
Group Think Or Whosoever Will Pt. 3
Paul's Purpose At Athens: Becoming All Things To All People
Personhood And Free Will
Scriptures Calvinist's Misinterpret
Resistance Is Futile!
You're a Hopeless Replacement Theologian If You:
Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth
You Know You're a Preterist if: Part 2
Are You Thankful For What You Have?
Top Ten Signs You Are a Fundamentalist Christian?
Getting Involved With Coffeehouse Ministry
A Few of My Projects
Next Subject
A Year in the Life
Maxwell's Musings
Is the Church, 'The Elect'?
Pope Apologizes For Telling the Truth
Catholic Catechism Paves the Way For Evolution
You Are A Hopeless Liberal If You:
Clean Slate
Three Column Chart
Ultra Dispensationalism: Scriptural or Not?
Group Think or Whosoever Will?
Chronological Chart of New Testament
You Might Be A Closet Dispie If:
Body of Christ versus Israel
The Mark of the Beast: Is it Literal?
You Know You're A Preterist If:
You Know You're a Preterist if: Part Three
The Comings of Christ: The How, When and Where
Groupthink and Cliques in the Church
Focus on the Family or on God
Cult Aware
Open Door Fellowship OR Come As We Are Ministries?
Transubstantiation or Unsubstantiated: If The Plain Sense Makes Sense...
DaVinci Code: Was Christ's Divinity and the Bible invented at the Council of Nicea?
Plain Sense Interpretation/P'shat: Christs Comings
Isaiah 53: Human Sacrifice?
Isaiah 53: Christ Has Risen!!
Who Hath Believed Our Report?
Isaiah 53: Christ Our Passover Lamb
Isaiah 53: Messianic Prophecies Refuted?
Chart comparing Israel to Messiah
Isaiah 53: The Suffering Messiah
Bible Chart: Does the Bible conflict on Salvation Messages?
Christs Coming and Time Gaps
Got Charts!
Are There Two Programs?
When Did the Church Begin?
When Did the Church Begin Pt. 2
Is America Cursed?
How and Why Christianity is Under Fire
Was Mary a Perpetual Virgin?
Tribulation or Jacob's Trouble?
Jewish Wannabes and the Holidays
Christmas Under Fire: When Christians Attack
Is Celebrating Christmas Scriptural?
Was Iraq a Just War?
Category 7: The End of the World
If It Believes, Then Waddles and Quacks like a Christian it is a....
Why Homosexuality Should Be Confronted and Exposed
The Doctrine Of Eternal Security-Can You Lose Your Salvation?
Does the Soul Sleep?
Did Jews Kill Jesus?...Hear What Some Jews Have to Say
Some Unscriptural Teachings of the Catholic Church
Arguments That Catholics Use
Pantribulationism: Are There Two Programs Going On?
Before and After
Pantribulationism: What A Day That Will Be!!!!
Definite Article Theology: The Way
Pantribulationism: Extrabiblical Nonsense
My Old Ship, the USS Shreveport Assisting Hurricane Victims
Pantribulationism: Should I Stay or Should I Go?
Trinity of God and Trichotomy of man: Definite Article Theology
Definite Article Theology
Pantribulationism: Blessed Hope and Glorious Appearing
Pantribulationism: The Departure
Pantribulationism: It will all pan out in the end
Straining Out Gnats, Majoring on the Minors
Jewish Wannabes and Eschaholics
When Jewish Wannabes Attack What They Don't Understand
How Jewish Wannabes Attack and How to Identify Them
Historical Method and Homosexuality
If the Plain Sense Makes Sense: Christ's Coming
If the Plain Sense Makes Sense: Evolution
The Silliness of Jack Chick
Inspirational and Patriotic Songs
Communism and Islam -vs- the Faith of America's Founding Fathers
Bridging the Generation Gap
Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth
Let's Worship the Lord
Faith Under Fire Television Show and Website
Faith Under Fire/Do We Worship the Same God?
Arrogant or Convinced?
Warning Signs of Dispensationalism?
Good News: How To Fight Terrorism
Prophecies Yet To Be Fulfilled: Zechariah 12:10-14
Are You Happy?
When Jewish Wannabes Attack the Bible
Why Jewish Wannabes Attack
The Masters List
You're A Hopeless ....
Preterism Versus Dispensationalism
What's Love Got To Do With It?
When Jewish Wannabes Attack!
Preterism and Calvinism?
Who Do Men Say That I Am?
Signs You Are Doing Something Right
Ivory Tower Theologians and more about me
Satan the Counterfeiter
Saved By Race or By Grace?
Wanna Know Some Secrets?
Distortions of the Resurrection
Apostles Today?
Message and Ministry of Paul compared to the twelve
Maxwell House...Good For Your Desktop
The Feminization of Christianity
Absurd World Views
Religion versus Relationship
The Mysteries Revealed
Replacement Theology
How did the Tribes and Books get Lost?
Catholics, Cliques and Cults
New Age Movement
Should Christians Observe the Sabbath?
The Power of One
Be Thankful
Group Think and the Jew
You Must Be Born Again!!
Tribute to a Friend
Who's That Babe in the Manger: Does it matter
President Bush and the Movie: Unbreakable
Having a Form of Godliness
The Natural Supernatural Connection
Spiritually Challenged Skeptics
Speaking or Praying to the Dead
Eternally Insecure?
The Preterist's False Hope
Apostolic Succession Catholic Style
Predestination or Free Will
The Foolish Confounding the Wise
About Me
Scripture Twisting: Reading into the text
Scripture Twisting: The Figurative Fallacy
So Deep A Child Could Understand
The Apostle Paul
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Requirements For Messiah
Small Groups or the Purpose Driven Church?
Mile High Ministries or Miles Apart Ministries
The Omnipresence and Incarnation of God
Is Jesus the Messiah?
Extrabiblical Nonsense
Blank Page
Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?
Focus on the Family?
Motherhood, Fatherhood or Discipleship?
The Watchtower and Jehovah's Witnesses
What is Love
That They May Be One
Suffering Servant
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I hope you can already see that when considering all the details, and they are many, of the Pre versus Post debate that we can get bogged down in the miry clay of delapidation and forget the important things.

What we can conclude is that we need to be ready when he comes or we go, whatever comes first and whether His coming or our going comes first is determined not by scripture but by God's will for the individual.

I could get hit by a car today so for me, my going would come before his coming.

Don't forget to read the end of this message which describes what a day it will be like when we see the Lord.

Pretrib Arguments: First the chart I posted below is from the Tribulation forces site and the link is at the bottom.

What I want to look at whether the saints are coming or going at Christ's second coming and whether the arguments for saints marching in or out are legitimate from either side of the debate.

I will deal with the first section of this chart that is in red, then in future messages deal with the rest.

But first one Pretrib website says:

 P - Place of the church in the book of Revelation.
None of the key New Testament passages that deal with the Tribulation mention the presence of the church."


Presence of the church: The church not being mentioned from chapter four to twenty two of Revelation is an interesting point that Pretribbers make.

However, this is an argument from silence, and that is not a good argument to make.

If I were to disappear and no longer speak in my groups, one should not automatically think I was raptured.

I could just be taking a really long nap. Its those Catholics, they just wear me out.

Or, I could just be getting tired of ninety nine percent of the Christian members in this group not responding to the well thought out and brilliant messages that I post. ;-D

At least the Catholics show me that they are reading what I am posting by voicing their disagreements.

This ought to at least give them a few less days in Hell, Oh, i mean purgatory.

Meanwhile back at the farm:

It is interesting that the term church is only mentioned at the beginning and at the end of the book of Revelation.

The first section in red from the chart, that makes distinctions between the rapture and the second coming provides the following scriptures is what I want to look at. I will look at the rest of the chart later. 


R - Rapture of the Church versus the return of Christ
Set the events of the Rapture parallel to the Second Coming and you decide:

Rapture Second Coming
Jesus coming FOR His Church. John 14:1-3, 1 Thess 4:14-17 Jesus coming WITH His Church Col 3:4, Zech 14:5, Jude 14, Rev 19:14
Caught up with Him in the air 1 Thess 4:13-18 Jesus' feet touch the earth Zech 14:4, Rev:11-21
Christians taken first, unbelievers are left behind. 1 Thess 4:13-18 Wicked are taken first, the righteous (Tribulation saints) are left behind.Matt 13:28-30
Purpose: To present the Church to Himself and to the Father 2 Cor 11:2, Rev. 19:6-9 Purpose: To execute judgment on earth and set up His Kingdom Jude 14-15,Rev 19:11-21, Zech 14:3-4
MARRIAGE: Marriage of Lamb in heaven after the Rapture WAR: Marriage is followed by war on earth at the 2nd coming
Happens in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (too fast for eyes to see) 1 Cor 15:52 Slow coming, people will see Him come back.Zech 12:10 Matt 24:30, Rev 1:7
Only Christians will see Him 1 John 3:2, 1 Cor 15:52 Every eye will see Him Rev. 1:7
Jesus descends with a shout(for resurrection) 1 Thess 4:16 No shout mentioned Rev. 19:11-21
A resurrection takes place 1 Thess 4:13-18, 1 Cor 15:51-54 No resurrection mentioned Rev 1:7, 19:11-21, Zech 12:10, 14:4-5
Can happen at any time Rev 3:3, 1 Thess 5:4-6 Occurs at end of 7 years of Tribulation Dan 9:24-27Matt 24:29-30, 2 Thess 2:3-8
No angels are sent to gather (resurrected people don't need angels to help them) Angels sent forth to gather people together for judgment Matt 13:39, 41, 49, 24:31, 25:31, 2 Thess 1:7-10
Spirits of those dead in Christ return with Jesus to receive their their resurrected bodies 1 Thess 4:14-16 Christians return with Jesus in already resurrected bodies riding on white horses. Rev 19:11-21
Jesus does not return on a white horse Jesus returns on a white horse Rev 19:11
For the Church only (those in Christ) 1 Thess 4:14-17 For redeemed Israel & Gentiles Rom 11:25-27, Matt 25:31-46
A message of hope and comfort 1 Thess 4:18, Titus 2:13, 1 John 3:3 A message of judgment Joel 3:12-16, Rev 19:11-21, Mal 4:5

Me and scripture:


1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14)

Here he will be receiving us unto himself not coming to where we are.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS, to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess. 4)

Here we meet him in the air not at the Mount of Olives with the Jews fleeing from Judea.

Second Coming?

4 When Christ, who is our life, SHALL APPEAR, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. (Colossians 3)

Here his appearance is associated with the Second Coming. My message entitled; 'Pantribulationism: The Blessed Hope and Glorious Appearing' looks at the definite article in Greek and makes a distinction between 'blessed hope/Rapture' and 'glorious appearing/Second Coming', though the use of only one definite article in 2 Thessalonians 2; connects 'coming of our Lord Jesus Christ ' with 'our gathering together unto him '. This does not explain whether his coming here is to the air or to the Mount of Olives.

I hope you can already see that when considering all the details, and they are many, of the Pre versus Post debate that we can get bogged down in the miry clay of delapidation and forget the important things.

What we can conclude is that we need to be ready when he comes or we go, whatever comes first and whether His coming or our going comes first is determined not by scripture but by God's will for the individual.

I could get hit by a car today so for me, my going would come before his coming.

And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And YE SHALL FLEE TO THE VALLEY OF THE MOUNTAINS, for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD MY GOD SHALL COME, AND ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE. (Zechariah 14)

Here Christ comes down to earth with his saints, plants his feet on the Mount of Olives and the Jewish believers, 'flee to the valley of the mountains', just as they are told to do in Matthew 24:15-19.

And ENOCH ALSO, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, THE LORD COMETH WITH TEN THOUSAND OF HIS SAINTS, (Jude 1:14)

Notice who is prophesying here, Enoch, the one who was raptured in the OT. He is the one that prophesies of these saints coming with the Lord.

So now rather than trying to speculate as to whether the second coming and the rapture are the same event, imagine a vision of ten thousand of his saints coming with the Lord.

What an Awesome Day That will be.

Now it would be hard for anyone to argue against the distinctions here between the rapture and the second coming of Christ.

Still, we do not know for certain whether the distinction in time between the two events is seven years or seven minutes do we?

Could it be possible that Christ receives his chiluns to himself then shortly afterwards these chiluns descend with him to earth to judge the wicked and set up camp near or above the New Jerusalem?

The thought makes me quite dizzy and a rapture 3 and 1/2 or 7 years before his descent to the Mount of Olives keeps me from losing my equilibrium.

The seven minute theory would require us to make a U Turn as soon as we say Good Day to Jesus.

However, a rapture and second coming only separated by minutes is still possible.

Posttrib Arguments:

Posttribbers want to point out terms like 'saints' and 'remnant of her seed' to prove that the church is still present during the Tribulation.

However, the term, 'church' is not used between chapters four and twenty two of Revelation.

Notice that the following verses from Revelation, Matthew and Daniel speak of the same thing and these events have to do with Jewish Believers.

Abominations that make desolate, sacrifices and oblations ceasing, fleeing from Judea, not fleeing on the Sabbath are only things that a Jewish believer of the Messianic Movement might be concerned about or a Jewish Wannabe that thinks everything having to do with Israel really applies to the believer.

So all indications are that when the 'remnant of her seed' or 'saints' are mentioned in Revelation that it is either speaking of Jewish believers or saints made so during the tribulation and therefore a part of the Kingdom message, similar to how Gentile believers were tagalongs in the gospels. (Matthew 10:5ff)

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Revelation 12)

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Daniel 9)

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: (Matthew 24)

And YE SHALL FLEE TO THE VALLEY OF THE MOUNTAINS, for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD MY GOD SHALL COME, AND ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE. (Zechariah 14)

Catholics want us to believe that the woman of Revelation twelve is Mary, but don't want to believe the woman/Queen/Whore of Revelation seventeen and eighteen is Rome.

What one thinks of the woman in chapter twelve can influence who they think the 'remnant of her seed' is.

If it is Mary then we may assume that 'remnant of her seed' is Catholics or Christians whether they be Jew or Gentile.

However, this interpretation can only really come by reading extrabiblical nonsense into Mary's role.

If it is speaking of Israel then this may be talking about Jewish believers, and I think a comparison of the verses above prove that point.

The following verses make me think that it is future and talking about Israel:

"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." vv. 6


"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."

Both of these scriptural references give time periods that equal 3 and 1/2 years which is halfway through the seven year tribulation, which by the way is when the covenant with Israel is broken, the abomination of desolation occurs and when Israel, not Mary or the Catholic church are to flee. (Matt. 24:15-19 ; Zechariah 14; Daniel 9:24-27)

Catholics and others have typically taken what applies to Israel and applied it to the church. This is called Replacement Theology and has contributed to the murder of millions of Jews.

Lord make us ready for your coming or our going, whatever comes first, in the name of Jesus, Amen.

Rather than debating the timing of the rapture, meditate on what a day that will be when we see the Lord.

Phil Keaggy sung a song that I want you to think about called 'What A Day'. Wish I could sing it for you but the Lyrics will have to do.

What A Day
(Phil Keaggy)

When I get Home I will see all
The holy men I read about.
Peter and John, James, Luke, and Paul
And brother Tom without a doubt.
And I do believe there will be
King David at the harp
A song of praise with every chord.
What a sight to see, the redeemed and
The angels gathered round worshiping the Lord.
What a day that will be
Oh what a day that will be!

When we get Home, our Eternal Home
There'll be no more sick and dying.
No one is sad, no one is alone
And there will be no more crying.
He will wipe away every tear
From His children's eyes
And put a smile upon their faces.
What a happy day when we see
Our Lord in Paradise
Crowned as King of Kings.
What a day that will be
Oh what a day that will be!

What a day, what a day,
What a day that will be..........

BJ Maxwell