Make your own free website on

Christianity Under Fire

A Defense of Individual Election unto Salvation & Critique of Absolute Corporate Election?

Study In Acts
Jesus In Genesis
Behemoth, Leviathan And Dragons, Oh My!
The Foolish Man's Guide To Confounding The Wise
A Defense of Individual Election unto Salvation & Critique of Absolute Corporate Election?
Group Think Or Whosoever Will Pt. 3
Paul's Purpose At Athens: Becoming All Things To All People
Personhood And Free Will
Scriptures Calvinist's Misinterpret
Resistance Is Futile!
You're a Hopeless Replacement Theologian If You:
Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth
You Know You're a Preterist if: Part 2
Are You Thankful For What You Have?
Top Ten Signs You Are a Fundamentalist Christian?
Getting Involved With Coffeehouse Ministry
A Few of My Projects
Next Subject
A Year in the Life
Maxwell's Musings
Is the Church, 'The Elect'?
Pope Apologizes For Telling the Truth
Catholic Catechism Paves the Way For Evolution
You Are A Hopeless Liberal If You:
Clean Slate
Three Column Chart
Ultra Dispensationalism: Scriptural or Not?
Group Think or Whosoever Will?
Chronological Chart of New Testament
You Might Be A Closet Dispie If:
Body of Christ versus Israel
The Mark of the Beast: Is it Literal?
You Know You're A Preterist If:
You Know You're a Preterist if: Part Three
The Comings of Christ: The How, When and Where
Groupthink and Cliques in the Church
Focus on the Family or on God
Cult Aware
Open Door Fellowship OR Come As We Are Ministries?
Transubstantiation or Unsubstantiated: If The Plain Sense Makes Sense...
DaVinci Code: Was Christ's Divinity and the Bible invented at the Council of Nicea?
Plain Sense Interpretation/P'shat: Christs Comings
Isaiah 53: Human Sacrifice?
Isaiah 53: Christ Has Risen!!
Who Hath Believed Our Report?
Isaiah 53: Christ Our Passover Lamb
Isaiah 53: Messianic Prophecies Refuted?
Chart comparing Israel to Messiah
Isaiah 53: The Suffering Messiah
Bible Chart: Does the Bible conflict on Salvation Messages?
Christs Coming and Time Gaps
Got Charts!
Are There Two Programs?
When Did the Church Begin?
When Did the Church Begin Pt. 2
Is America Cursed?
How and Why Christianity is Under Fire
Was Mary a Perpetual Virgin?
Tribulation or Jacob's Trouble?
Jewish Wannabes and the Holidays
Christmas Under Fire: When Christians Attack
Is Celebrating Christmas Scriptural?
Was Iraq a Just War?
Category 7: The End of the World
If It Believes, Then Waddles and Quacks like a Christian it is a....
Why Homosexuality Should Be Confronted and Exposed
The Doctrine Of Eternal Security-Can You Lose Your Salvation?
Does the Soul Sleep?
Did Jews Kill Jesus?...Hear What Some Jews Have to Say
Some Unscriptural Teachings of the Catholic Church
Arguments That Catholics Use
Pantribulationism: Are There Two Programs Going On?
Before and After
Pantribulationism: What A Day That Will Be!!!!
Definite Article Theology: The Way
Pantribulationism: Extrabiblical Nonsense
My Old Ship, the USS Shreveport Assisting Hurricane Victims
Pantribulationism: Should I Stay or Should I Go?
Trinity of God and Trichotomy of man: Definite Article Theology
Definite Article Theology
Pantribulationism: Blessed Hope and Glorious Appearing
Pantribulationism: The Departure
Pantribulationism: It will all pan out in the end
Straining Out Gnats, Majoring on the Minors
Jewish Wannabes and Eschaholics
When Jewish Wannabes Attack What They Don't Understand
How Jewish Wannabes Attack and How to Identify Them
Historical Method and Homosexuality
If the Plain Sense Makes Sense: Christ's Coming
If the Plain Sense Makes Sense: Evolution
The Silliness of Jack Chick
Inspirational and Patriotic Songs
Communism and Islam -vs- the Faith of America's Founding Fathers
Bridging the Generation Gap
Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth
Let's Worship the Lord
Faith Under Fire Television Show and Website
Faith Under Fire/Do We Worship the Same God?
Arrogant or Convinced?
Warning Signs of Dispensationalism?
Good News: How To Fight Terrorism
Prophecies Yet To Be Fulfilled: Zechariah 12:10-14
Are You Happy?
When Jewish Wannabes Attack the Bible
Why Jewish Wannabes Attack
The Masters List
You're A Hopeless ....
Preterism Versus Dispensationalism
What's Love Got To Do With It?
When Jewish Wannabes Attack!
Preterism and Calvinism?
Who Do Men Say That I Am?
Signs You Are Doing Something Right
Ivory Tower Theologians and more about me
Satan the Counterfeiter
Saved By Race or By Grace?
Wanna Know Some Secrets?
Distortions of the Resurrection
Apostles Today?
Message and Ministry of Paul compared to the twelve
Maxwell House...Good For Your Desktop
The Feminization of Christianity
Absurd World Views
Religion versus Relationship
The Mysteries Revealed
Replacement Theology
How did the Tribes and Books get Lost?
Catholics, Cliques and Cults
New Age Movement
Should Christians Observe the Sabbath?
The Power of One
Be Thankful
Group Think and the Jew
You Must Be Born Again!!
Tribute to a Friend
Who's That Babe in the Manger: Does it matter
President Bush and the Movie: Unbreakable
Having a Form of Godliness
The Natural Supernatural Connection
Spiritually Challenged Skeptics
Speaking or Praying to the Dead
Eternally Insecure?
The Preterist's False Hope
Apostolic Succession Catholic Style
Predestination or Free Will
The Foolish Confounding the Wise
About Me
Scripture Twisting: Reading into the text
Scripture Twisting: The Figurative Fallacy
So Deep A Child Could Understand
The Apostle Paul
About Us
Requirements For Messiah
Small Groups or the Purpose Driven Church?
Mile High Ministries or Miles Apart Ministries
The Omnipresence and Incarnation of God
Is Jesus the Messiah?
Extrabiblical Nonsense
Blank Page
Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?
Focus on the Family?
Motherhood, Fatherhood or Discipleship?
The Watchtower and Jehovah's Witnesses
What is Love
That They May Be One
Suffering Servant
Article Page
Interview Page
Reviews Page
Photo Album Page
Contact Me
New Page Title

"In brief, the mystery as it relates to the present, is the glorious truth that God has concluded both Jew and Gentile in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all (Rom. 11:32) and that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the Cross (Eph. 2:16)." Things That Differ, Chapter Two

A Refutation Of N.E. Barry Hofstetter's "A Defense of Individual Election unto Salvation & Critique of Absolute Corporate Election" 

I Capitalize Lots Because It Looks Better.

Right Off Hand I Noticed Some Things Professor Barry Is Doing.

First, He Goes To The Greek In An Attempt To Prove His Point Without Taking Into Account The 'Whole Counsel Of God' (Acts 20:27), And His Exegesis Of Scripture Replaces The Plain Sense Of Scripture With Nonsense.

His Practice Seems To Be, 'If The Plain Sense Makes Sense Exegete It.'


[Greek exēgētēs, from exēgeisthai, to interpret; see exegesis.]

But Instead Of Exegeting That Which Is Questionable, He Exercates That Which Is Plain.

"Exercate: to detest utterly; abhor; abominate."

Next, He Makes Lots Of Assumptions. He Declares Or Mostly Quotes Other Calvinists Regarding Their Beliefs But Then Follows It Up With Scripture About How We Should Behave In Spite Of Those Calvinist Beliefs.

For Instance He Essentially Believes That: God Loves Some And Only Saves A Few, But We Should Love All.

In Other Words, We Should Be More Loving Than The Creator.

It Doesn't Follow That We Should Be Loving Subjects Of An Unloving King.

Barry's Whole Article Here:

My Refutation Here.

Barry Quotes:

"We Are to Have a Good Hope for All. And although God knows who are his, and here and there mention is made of the small number of elect, yet we must hope well of all, and not rashly judge any man to be a reprobate. For Paul says to the Philippians, I thank my God for you all (now he speaks of the whole Church in Philippi), because of your fellowship in the Gospel, being persuaded that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. It is also right that I have this opinion of you all (Phil. 1:3 ff.)."

This Is Like Saying It Really Doesn't Matter Who Is Saved Or Not Because It Is All God's Doing, And We Don't Have A Clue Who Is Saved, But We Should Act Like We Care For All.

Does It Really Matter?

"How can we sincerely offer to men what has not been provided for them? How can we offer them a free gift if the gift has not been purchased for them? How can we urge them to drink from the fountain of life if no water has been provided for them? How can we tell them to be saved if He provided not for their salvation? How can we say to a person, "Take the medicine and be cured!" if there is no medicine to take and no cure provided? W. Lindsay Alexander says it this way:

On this supposition [that of a limited atonement] the general invitations and promises of the gospel are without an adequate basis, and seem like a mere mockery, an offer, in short, of what has not been provided" (A System of Biblical Theology, 2nd volume, page 111; and see Lightner pages 117-118)."

Professor Barry Quotes:

"What in This Matter Is To Be Condemned. Therefore we do not approve of the impious speeches of some who say, 'Few are chosen, and since I do not know whether I am among the number of the few, I will enjoy myself." Others say, "If I am predestinated and 2 elected by God, nothing can hinder me from salvation, which is already certainly appointed for me, no matter what I do. But if I am in the number of the reprobate, no faith or repentance will help me, since the decree of God cannot be changed. Therefore all doctrines and admonitions are useless." Now the saying of the apostle contradicts these men: The Lord's servant must be ready to teach, instructing those who oppose him, so that if God should grant that they repent to know the truth, they may recover from the snare of the devil, after being held captive by him to do his will (II Tim. 2:23


The 'Apostle Contradicts These Men' Because He Is Not A Calvinist, Had He Been, The Resultant Logic Of These Men Could Not Be Effectively Countered.

To Expect Behaviour That Is Opposed To One's Theology Is Like Expecting A J.W. To Believe In Salvation By Grace Through Faith In Christ, Though He Doesn't Believe That Christ Is God.

Walter Martin Speaks On This: "For it is axiomatic that if the doctrine of Christ Himself, i.e., His Person [which includes His being the second person of the Trinity] nature and work are perverted, then the identity of the life-giver is altered, then the life which He came to give is correspondingly negated." (The Kingdom of the Cults , Bethany House Publishers) '

The One Does Not Logically Follow The Other.

It Doesn't Follow That We Should Act Like God Is Love And Loves All When We Really Believe That God Only Loves A Few And Hates The Rest.

It Doesn't Follow That We Should Love All When God Only Loves A Few.

Isn't Our Behaviour Suppose To Pattern The God We Believe In?

The God Who Is Love Would Be Surpassed By His Creatures, Even If We Loved All Because We Weren't Sure Which Ones God Hated.

"For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again." (2 Corinthians 5)

Here Our Love Is A Byproduct Of God's Love For All.

If God Only Loved A Few, Then This Is How It Would Read:

"For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for A FEW, and therefore A FEW died. 15 And he died for SOME, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again."

If Christ's Love Compels And Controls Us Then As Christ Only Loves Some, So We Should Love Some.

Experiencing Some Calvinist Cliques, This Just May Be What They Are Doing.

Check Out How Martin Luther, Calvin And Zwingli Treated Others Here .

Professor Barry Continues Quoting:
"Admonitions Are Not in Vain Because Salvation Proceeds from Election. Augustine also shows that both the grace of free election and predestination, and also salutary admonitions and doctrines, are to be preached (Lib. de Dono Perseverantiae, cap. 14 ff.)."

What Does It Matter What Augustine Taught If It Is Not In Line With Scripture And One Hasn't Proven Their First Assumptions Scripturally?

"Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly--mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? 4 For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?

5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe--as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow." (1 Corinthians 3)

Quoting Church Fathers Or Theologians Should Only Be Frosting On A Cake Already Made.

Saying 'I Am Of Augustine Or Calvin Is Not Any Better Either.

More Here.

Barry Contiues To Quote: "We must hear what the Lord himself daily preaches to us in the Gospel, how he calls and says: Come to me all who labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest (Matt. 11:28). God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life (John 3:16). Also, It is not the will of my Father that one of these little ones should perish (Matt. 18:14)."

This Is Ludicrous To Say Only A Few Are To Be Saved, Because God Only Loves A Few But Then Quote Scripture Where Christ Is Making His Appeal To 'All Who Labor And Are Heavy-Laden And I Will Give You Rest.'"

Scripture Teaches That Sin Burdens And Wearys Everyone, So His Appeal Is To All, But If This Modern Day Stoicism Is Correct. Jesus Would Have Said This, "Come Unto Me A Few Of You That Are Weary And Heavy Laden And I Will Give You Rest."

We Are Fortunate That God Made Sure That A Majority Of Calvinists Didn't Translate The bible, Else We Would Have Only Known One Side Of The 'Mystery of Godliness' (1 Tim. 3:16)

Barry Quotes Still Again:

"We shall have a sufficiently clear and sure testimony that we are inscribed in the Book of Life if we have fellowship with Christ, and he is ours and we are his in true faith."

Oh Really?

Well Lets Use This Standard For The Calvinist Reformers And After Which The Calvinists Are Named. Calvin, Luther And Zwingli, Reformers That Believed In Determinism, Similar To The Stoics Murdered Those That Disagreed With Them. 

Luther: Advocated The Abolition Of Jews In His Pamphlet 'The Jews And their Lies' (Me)

More Here

If The Founders Were Murderers, Then How Are They Any More Authoritative Than The Pharisees Unto Which Christ Said: "'If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." (John 8)

Barry Starts Speaking For Himself:

"My argument is that there is no dichotomy between corporate and individual election, but rather the two concepts are in perfect harmony in the Scriptures. Furthermore, those who argue absolute corporate election as opposed to individual election are attempting to defend their concept of free will in the ordo salutis, so we see that their exegesis has a theological motivation that is in fact foreign to the biblical texts most pertinent to the subject."

Not Only Is Professor Barry Obligated To Show No Dichotomy But Show Any Instance Of God Irresistably Damning Someone.

I've Seen Instances Of His Mercy But Not His Irresistable And Eternal Hatred Toward Anyone.

For Barry To Assume That 'Free Will' Is An Assumption Is Like Saying,

'There Are Some That Base Their Theology On The Assumption That Matter Is Real And We Are Not Living In A Dream World.'

"Am I A Man Dreaming I'm A Butterfly Or A Butterfly Dreaming I'm A Man?"

Then We Could Go Back to Having To Prove Some Of The Most Basic Assumptions That Reasonable Human Beings Make.

More Here On Free Will.

Maybe I'm Not Sitting In Front Of This Computer Reading This Silly Stuff.

There Are Certain Things That Are Self Evident But  Some People Still Waste Their Time On Rather Than Understanding That If God Is Appealing To 'All' (2 Corinthians 5), Then He Must Expect All To Have The Ability To Respond One Way Or The Other.

Yes, My Assumption Is That God Is Love.

It Does Not Follow That Man Being UnAble To Respond Only In The Affirmative Means That He Still Has A Choice.

Responding In The Negative Would Only Be The Default Setting Of A Machine.

The Only Ones That This Freedom Of Will Isn't Evident To Are Those Steeped Into GroupThink.

"We Hold These Truths To Be Self Evident, That All Men Are Created Equal that they are endowed, by their Creator , with certain unalienable Rights , that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness." (Declaration Of Independence)

Now If Most Men Didn't Have A Free Will (Liberty) Given By Their Creator Then On this basis Alone, Man Is Not Created Equal.

Our Court System Is Based On Reasonable People Making Judgments Over Those That Should Have Made 'Reasonable' Decisions, And If Not Reasonable Then The Punishment Should Fit The Unreasonable Mental State Of The One Being Judged.

Is Our Justice System More Just Than God?

This Is Justice And Mercy And Are We To Say That Court System Is More Just Than A God Who Makes Universal Appeals To Unreasonable People That Really Cannot Choose?

Calvinist Justice Means 'Just Us'.

Professor Barry Says:

"Paul’s 2 purpose in Eph 1 is to set the foundation for his arguments concerning the nature and character of the church, a major theme of this epistle. 3 He begins by the extraordinary statement that every spiritual (πνευατικη) blessing is the present possession (notice the aorist participle εὐλογησας) of the believer granted by the Father in Christ. 4 The possession of these blessings is in the heavenly realms, which should be understood not so much as a physical location as an eschatological, redemptive-history fulfillment category."

The Plain Sense In Ephesians Is That These Blessings Are Ours Now, In The Spirit.

Let Me Say That The Present Possession Of 'Every Spiritual Blessing In the Heavenlies' Doesn't Support Predestination But The Fact That We Are In Christ, And We Have Access To Christ, When We Believe.

'who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.' (Ephesians 1:3b)


"My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments." (Colossians 2)

The Mystery Mentioned Here Is Ultimately Christ, And That In His Physical Body the Spiritual Body Came Into Existence (Ephesians 2), And When We Are In Him, We Are Spiritually 'Before The Foundation Of The World.' As He Is.

This Is Where Understanding The Trichotomy Of Man Helps.

For My Examination Of Ephesians One Go Here.

"24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. (John 17; KJV)

"The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not. 34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors." (Proverbs 8; KJV)

"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. " (1 Corinthians 1)

So It Is Christ Who Is The Eternal Wisdom That Was Before The Foundation Of The World.

The God man Was The Plan.

"As we have pointed out, the mystery of God's will is the gathering together of all in heaven and earth in Christ. This, however, is His ultimate purpose. All God's own were not gathered together in Christ at once. Thus the mystery of God's will involved the unfolding of a new program, a new dispensation.

In brief, the mystery as it relates to the present, is the glorious truth that God has concluded both Jew and Gentile in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all (Rom. 11:32) and that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the Cross (Eph. 2:16)."

"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you..." (1 Peter 1)

It Was Christ Who Was Chosen And Foreordained But Still Made His Own Choice To Submit To The Fathers Will.

Then Professor Barry Gets Longwinded And Says:

"The first blessing which is listed is in fact that of election. "Just as" (καθως) in vs. 4 is used here to explain precisely what Paul means in vs. 3, and begins a list of the spiritual blessings which Paul wishes to emphasize for his readers. The word used to describe

God’s activity in this passage is normally translated "chosen," ἐξελεξετο, and has a semantic range including "choose, select." The form is middle deponent, and preserves something of the original use of the middle, that the action is performed in the interest of the subject."

I Try To Quote Barry In His Complete Quote To Avoid His Accusing Me Of Ignoring Something He Said.  

Though He Makes A Practice Of Ignoring What He Doesn't Want To Respond To And Selectively Responding To Minor Points.

The Choosing Here Should Not Be Separated From 'In Him', Who Was Before The Foundation Of The World.

Nor Separated From 'That We Should Be Holy And Without Blame Before Him In Love.'

Here The Choosing Seems To be In Regards To Our Behaviour After Salvation Not Salvation.

Ephesians Two Confirms This.

"8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)--" (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Here The 'Good Works' Are What Is 'prepared in advance for us to do', Not The Irresistable Salvation.

Also Here In Ephesians Two It Is Speaking Of 'Gentiles By Birth', So The Emphasis Here Is On The Predetermined Sanctification Of The Gentiles Who Are Placed In Christ.

Again It Emphasizes 'Created In Christ Jesus'.

Why Is It So Difficult For SomeTo See That It Is Ultimately Christ Jesus Who Is 'Before The Foundation Of The Word And In His Own Body He Would Make The Two One, thereby Creating The Body Of Christ.

Also The Phrase 'Before The Foundation Of The World' Should Be Examined As Well.

What Was Determined Before The Foundation Of The World Was 'The Preaching Of The Gospel To Gentiles Not The Irresistable Saving Of The Gentiles, Else 'All Gentiles Shall Be Saved.'

Barry Says:

"6 The verb naturally implies the involvement of the will of the one choosing,"

So In Other Words Proper Translation Of The Greek Cannot Divorce Itself From the Plain Sense Meaning Of The Text.

I Agree, So Why Don't We Stick To That?

Barry Says:

"though context determines the criteria by which the choice is made. Here, Paul mentions no external criterion at all, but characterizes the activity both temporally and purposively, as "before the foundation of the world" and to be "holy and blameless before him."

Not Only Context But All Of Scripture Ought To Determine What Is Involved In Choosing.

No External Criteria Would Mean that God Doesn't Presently Draw Or Drag Individuals.

Scripture Refutes That (John 12)

"32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

So You Can Believe That A Choosing Outside Of Time Happens, But You Cannot Argue That This Is All That Is In Play In The Salvation Of Souls.

Well Lets See About This Phrase, 'Before The Foundation Of the World'

"All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world." (Revelation 13:8)

Ephesians One, Uses The Greek Word 'pro'- before and Revelation Here Uses 'apo'-from, But We Need To Ask Ourselves How Can Christ Even Be Slain From the foundation Of The World, If He Died Only two thousand Years Ago?

Other translations Make 'Our Names' What Was From the Foundation Of The World, Not the Death Of Christ, But Would It Make Sense For Our Names To Be Written Down Before The Actual Sacrificial Act That Would Make That Possible?

'8 And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, [every one] whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain." (Ibid, ASV)

"the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ. 29 To this end I labor, struggling with all his energy, which so powerfully works in me."

Paul Makes It Clear Here That The Mystery (1 Timothy 3:16), That Was 'Hidden For Ages And Generations', Is 'Christ In You (Gentiles)' Not Irresistable Salvation For A Few.

God's Whole Purpose For Speaking Of His Right To Do Whatever He Wills Is To Emphasize His Mercy On The Gentiles, Which By The Way Would Make The Jews Jealous.

The Plan Was The God Man. It Was In His Very Body That The Body Of Christ Was Born, Through His Death, And Christ Himself Was Who Was Before The Foundation Of the World. (Ephesians 2)

It Wasn't Just Christ That Was Hidden But That Through His Death And 'In Himself' The Gentiles Would Be Given A Chance.

This Is Not Prophesied In The Old Testament.

Isaiah Fifty Three Gets Close But Doesn't Include The Gentiles, Or Faith In Christ's Sacrifice, And Even To This Day Israel Rejects That Chapter As Referring To Messiah.

"Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: "Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" 39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them." 41 Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.

42 Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not confess their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved praise from men more than praise from God." (John 12)

This Partial Blindness Of Some Jews Was To Fulfill Isaiah But Not Unto The Permanent And Irresistable Damning Of Israel But So That The Gentiles Could Be Included. (Romans 11:24-32)

This Is Why They Will Be So Shocked When The 'One They Have Pierced' Appears Again. (Zechariah 13)


"The placement of "in love" (ἐν ἀγαπη) is quite ambiguous here, perfectly in a position that can modify either the clause preceding or the clause following, and should probably be taken with both. In the discussion of this somewhat rarified topic, these words remind us that for Paul, God’s election from before creation is no abstract theological consideration, but one which is characterized by and indeed a result of God’s love."

Its Interesting That 'All' And God's 'Love' Are Ambiguous Only When It Doesn't Fit Calvinist Theology.

It Certainly Is Clear When Calvinists Want To Prove The 'Total Depravity of All' but They Ignore That Christ Died For All.

More Here

Barry: "The verb προοριζω means to determine, plan or choose something beforehand, the compound element προ- emphasizing the futurity of the action in terms of its desired result.7 Paul uses an additional prepositional phrase to qualify this activity: "according to (κατα) the pleasure 8 of his will." No external criterion governing God’s choice is given in this context, but an internal criterion is given, the simple fact that it pleased God so to act, and the action was therefore in line with his will."

No One Is Disputing That Something Existed And Was Predetermined. We Can See That In the Plain Sense Of Scripture, But It Was Christ Himself Who Eternally Preexisted And In His Body The Body/Church Was Born.

"His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two (Jew And Gentile), thus making peace, 16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility." (Ephesians 2)

When We Are Saved, We Are Placed In Christ Who Always Was And This Is Our Identification With The Eternal One. Not Only Do We Become One With Him But What He Did.

Barry Says: "God has a plan which encompasses all of

history, a plan to bring all things under the headship of Christ. "All things" is clearly intended here in the comprehensive sense: nothing is to be left out, but in the words of

Paul in Philippians 2:10-11, 'every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord…' "

In vs. 11, the elective, predestinating activity of God is again emphasized."

Here Barry Is Willing To Admit That 'All' Means All.

This Is The Practice Of Calvinists To Believe 'All' Means All When It Supports Their Belief In The 'Total Depravity' Of All And When It Fits Their Theology But Not When The Multitudes Of Scriptures Say That Christ Died For All. (2 Corinthians 5:14-17; Romans 5:18,19;Romans 3 ; Romans 11:24-32)

But The Question Here Is Not Just 'All' But What God's Will Is.

Since We Will Both Agree That This Is Not Talking About Universalism It Must Mean Something Else.

And Bringing Everything Under His Will Is About Giving Everyone The Opportunity First, Then Judging Those That Reject Him.

Its Not One Or The Other. One Is About Giving All An Opportunity, Then Later Judging Those That Reject Him.

Barry Is Confusing God's Future Plans With His Present Plans.

"As we have pointed out, the mystery of God's will is the gathering together of all in heaven and earth in Christ. This, however, is His ultimate purpose. All God's own were not gathered together in Christ at once. Thus the mystery of God's will involved the unfolding of a new program, a new dispensation.

In brief, the mystery as it relates to the present, is the glorious truth that God has concluded both Jew and Gentile in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all (Rom. 11:32) and that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the Cross (Eph. 2:16)."

Barry Goes On :

"In vs. 11, the elective, predestinating activity of God is again emphasized. There is a real connection here to the previous verses. If God has a plan and purpose which encompasses all of creation, then that plan and purpose has special reference to the objects of his love, the church. Paul here speaks of receiving an inheritance, and emphasizes that this reception was "predestined," repeating the same key vocabulary item discussed above. He employs further language which finds the locus of this activity in the plan of God, and in no other place."

This Statement Is Unbelievable.

First, I Think He Means 'focus' Not 'locus'


1. a place; locality.

2. a center or source, as of activities or power: locus of control.

3.Mathematics. the set of all points, lines, or surfaces that satisfy a given requirement.

But If He Does Mean locus, Then His Narrow exegesis does not 'satisfy a given requirement of a set'-Definition Of Locus, Because, When Evaluating A Subject Such As How God And man Connect In Salvation, One Cannot Neglect The Human Side, which Requires Looking At The Whole Counsel Of God.

Barry's Cookie Cutter Theology Leaves A Lot Of Dough Leftover And Unaccounted For.

Barry Compares What Believer And Unbeliever Will Do In The End With What God Is Doing Now.

Unless He Is Preaching Universalism, The 'Every Knee' Bowing And Every Tongue Confessing Will Be Done By All, Including Unbelievers.

This Is Not Predestination, This Is After It Is Too Late For Many And The Unbelievers Have Rejected Him Are Bowing And Confessing From Hell.

How Can We Compare That To What Is Happening Now?

Hell Is Where The People Are Who Rejected His Offer. '

It Is Ludicrous To Say That This Compares To Predestination Now.

Barry Dumbfounds Me Even Further:

"It is "according to [his] purpose" (κατα προθεσιν),

and that purpose is qualified by the fact that God accomplishes everything "according to

the purpose (βουλην) of his will. The result? "So that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be to the praise of his glory."

God’s activity in election is therefore seen as the result of his will and purpose, and Paul

sees fit here to give no other reason or explanation for why God has done what he has done."

The Ones That Are First To Hope Are The Believing Jews.

Every Knee Bowing Has Nothing To Do With God Irresistably Saving Some and Damning The Rest.

This Happens As A Result Of The Majority Rejecting His Offer.

Everything To The Counsel Of His Will Is That He Presently Has Included The Gentiles, Thereby Giving All The Opportunity.

God's Will Is To Declare All Depraved So That He Can Give All The Opportunity.

"For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! 34 "Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" (Romans 11)

If All Are Declared Disobedient Then All Are Shown Mercy.

Barry Looks Through His Narrow Telescope Again:

"God’s activity in election is therefore seen as the result of his will and purpose, and Paul sees fit here to give no other reason or explanation for why God has done what he has done."

And This Is The Tragedy Of Barry's Whole Thinking.

He Makes Little Reference To The Rrrest Of The Story And Only Shows One Side Of the Mystery.

This Is Like A JW Saying, In A Particular Passage We See The Humanity Of Christ Brought Out And No Reference Is Made Of His Deity , And Because No Reference Is Made In This Chapter, Of Christ's Deity Then That Means He Was Not God Almighty.

We Would Recognize This As Myopic Theology That Doesn't Consider The 'Whole Counsel Of God' (Acts 20:27)

But Even In The Chapter Barry Refers To There Is Mention Made To Our Part In The Election Process.

"9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. " (Ephesians 1:9-11)

One Would Have To Possess No Knowledge Of 'The Fulness Of Times' Or 'Times Have Reached Their Fulfillment' To State That Only God's Election Is Involved In This Chapter.

The Temporary And Partial Blindness Of Israel Is To Give Gentiles An Opportunity Then In the End God Will Be Merciful To Endtime Israel And Save Them.

Nothing About God's Election To The Exclusion Of Our Part, And In Fact Unless We Want To Promote Universalism, The 'Fulness Of Gentiles Is Opportunity Not Irresistable Salvation.

"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." (Romans 11)

So The Only Irresistable Act Of God Is Toward Israel In the End And It Is An Act Of Mercy.

Other Verses Having to Do With 'Fulness Of Times' Fulness of the Gentiles: (Luke 21:20-24; Romans 11:24-32)

The Bible, Not Ones Selective Use Of Greek Interprets Scripture.

Barry Assumes:

"Of great importance to our treatment are the pronouns (both the literal pronouns and those implied in the form of the verbs). Paul does not speak in abstract terms here, of the "church" or "the people of God." Instead, appropriate to his actual content, he

interchanges the first person plural and second person plural pronouns to emphasize the precise recipients of God’s elective activity and its consequences. God "chose us in him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless…"10 Paul then takes pains to point out that the Ephesians themselves have not been left out, but having heard the Gospel and believed, they have been sealed by the holy Spirit, and included in the inheritance which Paul has already described. They too have a share in all the blessings enumerated in 1:3-11, and they too are the objects of God’s predestinating love."

The Choosing Here Is Toward Holiness Not Salvation.

Inclusion Here Is Inclusion With The Believing Jews, And The Use Of The Plural Pronouns Doesn't Makes It Related To The Body Of Christ, As A Whole'

Barry Says:

"As part of his extended argument in Rom 8, Paul uses the language of foreknowledge and predestination with regard to accomplishing his purposes in Christ. While Paul is not suggesting an ordo salutis here per se, it is certainly true that that he is presenting a sequence of events that are, from the human perspective, temporally understood. Note that Paul does not qualify the objects of his foreknowledge (προγινωσκω) in any of the actions or attitudes of those objects, but simply states that God’s redemptive activity toward these objects is grounded in the fact that he already knew them, literally that he "knew before." If we extend our consideration back one verse to 28 (as properly we

should, since vs. 29 simply continues the argument, providing the reason for vs. 28), we see that God causes all things to work together for good for those he loves, for the called according to his purpose. The vocabulary here is quite similar to that used in Eph 1, and the concepts are identical. 11 This indicates that the scope or range of Paul’s thought on this subject is the same as that of the parallel passages in Ephesians, but Paul adds emphasis to the purpose of God by his statement concerning God’s foreknowledge."

Barry Makes A Lot Of Assumptions In This Article.

One Such Assumption Is That 'God Causes All Things To Work Together For Good For Those He Loves.'

A Baptist Friend I Knew In The Navy Said This,

"It Doesn't Say All Things Are Good But That All Things Work Together For The Good. "

It Is Also Interesting That The Calvinist Professor Wants Us To Take 'All' Literally Here, but Not In the Places Where 'All' Is Used, Like 'Christ Died For All.' (2 Cor. 5)

Also This Working Together For The Good, Is For Believers Who Are Saved And Scripture Does Speak Of Works Being Foreordained For Those That Choose to Believe, But Also Points To Our Part. (Ephesians 2:8-10; Romans 8:29; Philippians 2:12,13)

Notice Also That Foreknowledge Precedes Predestination.

In Other Words Those That Believe Are In Christ (John 15; 1 John 4;), Who Himself Was Before the Foundation Of The World, So Therefore God Foreknew Us Through Him.

If We Are Seated In The Heavenlies (Ephesians 1:3), 'Dead To Sin' Though Our Other Parts Aren't Completely (Romans 6), 'Buried With Him In Baptism' (ibid), Adopted As Sons, Then This Must Mean That We Are Wherever And Whenever Christ Is, Because Christ Is And Since We Know This Cannot Be Presently True Physically, It Is True Spiritually.

So Then Why Do Some Have Such Problems With Understanding That We Were Chosen Before The Foundation Of the World In Christ, But Still Responsible To Respond Today?

The Spirit, Blood And Water Agree In One. (1 John 5)

When We Step Into The River Of Life, We Are A Part Of The River In Its Entirety, From Beginning To End, Though A River Doesn't Really Have A Beginning Point (Other Than Creation) And An End Except That It Becomes Part Of A Bigger Body Of Water.

Barry Is Inconsistent:

"As part of his extended argument in Rom 8, Paul uses the language of foreknowledge and predestination with regard to accomplishing his purposes in Christ. While Paul is not suggesting an ordo salutis here per se, it is certainly true that that he is presenting a sequence of events that are, from the human perspective, temporally understood."

It Is So Typical Of Calvinists To Talk About ordo salutis (Steps To Redemption), But When Something Conflicts With Their Cookie Cutter Soteriology, Explain It Away By Saying It Is Just A 'human perspective'.

The Human Perspective Obviously Should Be Included Because God Became A man, and That Was The Ultimate Plan.

I've Seen Calvinists Do Much More To Subvert And Water Down The Plain Sense Of Scripture Than Present Scripture That Defends Their Beliefs.

The Truth Is Foreknowledge Should Be Understood As Preceding Predestination.

Also God's Allow Is Our Cause.

If God Foresees Before He Predestinates Then What Does He See that Would Lead Him to Predestinate Differently Than What He Foresees?

And If What He Sees Is All People Going to Hell (Which Would Be the Natural Course) Then How Does That Give Him Any Insight That He Didn't Already Possess By Just Knowing Human Nature?

And If It Doesn't, Then What Is The Purpose Of Foreknowledge.

If In Fact What He Foresees Is Some People Responding, Then His Allowing It Would Make It A Stable And Solid Reality, So Therefore Predestined.

If God Sees Things Ahead Of Time and Has The Power To Alter It But Doesn't, Is It The Same As His Causing?

Would This Make Prophecy Not Seeing The Future But Determining the Future based On Only God's Choice And Not On Israel's Response.

That Would Be A Puppet Show With The Puppetmaster The Only Real Player.

How Sad That Would Be, But Wait, My Sadness Must Be Because The Puppetmaster Made It So.

I Want To Become A Real Boy Pinnochio Says.

Barry Says:

"What is the nature of this foreknowledge? If we examine the canonical OT background, we see that God’s knowledge of future events is active and discriminating. A classic proof text with regard to this is Jer 1:5, where God declares that he knows Jeremiah before he (God) even formed him in the womb, setting him apart and appointing him as a prophet to the nations. The suggestion is obvious: God knew Jeremiah ahead of time, not in terms of grounding his choice of Jeremiah in any actions of Jeremiah (how can one not yet even conceived perform any actions?), but in the sense that God knew who Jeremiah would be, formed him, and chose him for the prophetic task. All of this activity, including God’s foreknowing, is based in God, and not in the object of the activity."

Again Foreknowledge Has No Relevance If It Doesn't Assist In A Decision Being Made.

Actually Barry's Choice Of Scripture Disproves His Assumptions. Jeremiah Was A Prophet Of The Highest Calibre And To Equate Him To The Rest Of Us Probably Isn't The Best Comparison.

And If As Barry Asks, 'how can one not yet even conceived perform any actions?, Then How Can God Actually Know One That Doesn't Exist Except In His Eternal Mind.

So Not Only Is God Making Decisions Here Before Jeremiah Acts But Even Before He Even Exists.

"But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord." (1 Corinthians 1)

Jeremiah Could Qualify As Things That Are Not' Before His Birth.

Tell Me How Do You Choose A Thing That Is Not, Except Eternally?

If It Is Not, Then It Is Not A Thing And Cannot Be Chosen, Except In The Mind Of The Eternal One Who Doesn't Distinguish Between Past And Future.

In Fact If We Want to Wax Philosophical Think About This One.

Obviously There Was A Time Before Jeremiah Existed, Yet The Eternal Father Somehow Knows Him And Speaks Of Him As An Entity.

A Timeless Father Doesn't Make A Distinction Between That Which Is And That Will Be, Though We Being Of Time Do.

Both Of Our Realities Are Correct But Aspects Of The Bigger Picture.

The Fathers Is An Aspect Of Timelessness But From The Angle Of The Triunity.

Ours Is An Aspect From Time But From An Angle Of A Trichotomy.

One Question is Whether God The Father's Angle Is The Irresistable Cause Of All The Other Effects?

How Can One Know Something Which Is Not?

Barry Goes On:

"Rom 9:6-24 This passage is another one that is far too rich to mine completely in this short article, but it contains a number of conceptual parallels to the passages already considered."

Actually, The Verses Mentioned Are Referring To The Inclusion Of Gentiles In The Plan When It Was Previously Jews Only.

"As he says in Hosea: "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," 26 and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God. 27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. 28 For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality." 29 It is just as Isaiah said previously: "Unless the Lord Almighty had left us descendants, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah." 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;" (Romans 9:25-30)

Barry Selectively Uses Scripture Out Of Context, Then Doesn't Even Quote The Verses But Still Feels Free To Expound On It. The Three Illustrations He Gives Are Either:

1) Not In Regards to Salvation


2) Are Temporary Setting Asides

3) This Temporary State Was To Have More Mercy On All.

He Refers to Abraham And Isaac Not Ishmael, Jacob And Esau And Pharaoh.

Every Christian Will Agree That Our Salvation Is Apart From Works, but Diagree That Faith Is Works.

Faith Is No More Works In The Biblical Definition Than 'Letting Go' Is A Verb.

God's Hardening Of Pharoah's Heart...

Barry Says: "Paul cites Exodus 9:16 to indicate that God’s purposes exceed human expectation and human perspectives."

Paul Also Repeats This In Romans Eleven "Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! 34 "Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" 35 "Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?"

But Precedes It With "so they too (Israel) have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound ALL men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them ALL.",

So The Ones That Are Having A Hard Time Understanding God's Ways Are Not Those That Believe God Had Mercy And Died For All But Those With A Clique Theology.

 If The Calvinist Accepts The 'Total Depravity Of All. Then He Must Accept The Mercy Of God On All.


"He then repeats his earlier statement, by way of conclusion of this section, that the source of mercy is nothing in the object granted the mercy, but the will of God himself. Paul then goes on to justify these arguments (almost a theodicy) using the famous illustration of the potter and the clay, emphasizing that human beings have no right to question the will and purposes of God, but must accept them with all due humility as the creature to the creator."

Nothing In The Object God Is Only Relevant when God Shows Mercy Not When He Shows Hate.

What Would Be The Purpose Of Saying, There Is Nothing In You That Caused Me To Hate You.

Truth Is That Every Unbeliever Is An Enemy Of God, So How Would there Not Be Something In Them That Would Warrant Gods Hate?

So Nothing In The object In Question Is Only Relevant In Regards To His Mercy, And I Have No Objection To His Mercy. The Question Is Whether It Is Irresistable.

Barry Forgets The God man Paradox That Exists Throughout Scripture And Is Exemplified In Christ.

'Every Time God And Man Meet There Is A Mystery'

 And Everytime You Hear Of God's Ability, You Hear Of Man's Responsibility To Respond to That Ability.

Barry Mentions God's Part In The Salvation Process But Conveniently Forgets Man's Responsibility To Respond.

"But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work."

Did you Catch That, If....You Will Be An Instrument For Noble Purposes. If It Was Only God, Then Whether We Were Vessels Of Honor Or Dishonor Would Have Been Established Before Time Began.

If the Calvinists Were Correct, The Perseverance Of God The Only Ingredient, And God The Puppetmaster, The Translation Should Have Said To Christians, 'SINCE A MAN WILL therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work."' (2 Timothy 2)

If This Is Only Speaking To Christians Here, Then Why Would A Christian Who Was Already Predetermined To Be a 'Vessel Unto Honor' Then Later Have To 'Cleanse Himself' To Become What God Already Determined Before The foundation Of the World Irrespective Of Anything The Man Did?

Barry Continues Ad Nauseam, Ad Infinitum, Ad rift :

Barry Concludes As Always With Little Or No Scriptural Proof And Just Quotes Scripture From A Distance.

"The Arminian often objects that Paul is talking about the two individuals as symbolic of their respective nations, so that what is in view are not Jacob and Esau as two individuals, but their descendents as a whole. From a covenantal perspective, there is some value to this observation: all the descendents of Esau are destined to perish (Obadiah 15-18), and many of the literal descendents of Jacob are intended to find salvation. However, note that Paul is adducing this example precisely to explain the fate of many in national Israel who reject Christ. While the covenantal/corporate aspect is certainly present, by mentioning them as individuals, Paul demonstrates that God’s elective will has personal reference and application."

Certainly Obadiah's Descendants Perish, But Not Spiritually Because Of An Predetermined Choice By God in Eternity.

God's Foreknowledge Then Predestination Yes, ordo salutis Is Foreknowledge First And Is About God's Mercy Toward Those That Are 'In Christ' Who Was Before The Foundation Of the World.

While Scriptures Are Full Of God's Mercy, We Don't Find A God That Is Eternally Set Against Individuals Or Groups Through No Fault Of Their Own.

Gods Blinding Is Temporary And Meant To Let Others In. (2 Peter 3; Romans 11:24-32)

Barry Says:

foreknowledge, as we have seen above, is comprehensive, discriminating, and selective. His will is always accomplished, he who knows the end from the beginning, and never fails to bring his plans to fruition (Isa 46:9-10).

What Barry Refuses To See Is That His Plans Are That No one Perish. (2 Peter 3:9), And How His Foreknowledge Should Result In Choosing Some And Rejecting Others Despite Anything They Have Done Makes Foreknowledge Unnecessary And Void Of Love.


"It is simply contrary to this revelation to assume that God’s will is only applied in some general sense over which he has no ultimate control. Instead, even as God could choose Jeremiah from before birth to be a witness to the nations, so God’s love is set not only on an abstraction called "the church," but on each and every true member of that church. This knowledge, as many have pointed out, should not make us proud, but instead drive us to our knees in thanksgiving and praise as we contemplate the greatness and glory of God and his purposes in redemption."

Actually, This Unscriptural Conclusion Drives People To Think As Jews And Calvinists Do That: "

"The Sun Has Never Shone On A More Bloodthirsty And Vengeful People Than They Are Who Imagine That They Are God's People Who Have Been Commissioned And Commanded To Murder And To Slay The Gentiles." (Martin Luther, The Jews And Their Lies.)

Barry Says:

"With the apostle Paul in Romans 11:33-36 we must confess: [33] Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

[34] "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?"

[35] "Or who has given a gift to him,that he might be repaid?"

[36] For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever.


But We Must Also Read The Preceding Verse Which Says:

"so they too (Israel) have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound ALL men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them ALL." , So The Ones That Are Having A Hard Time Understanding God's Ways Are Not Those That Believe God Had Mercy And Died For All But The Ones That Have Adopted A Clique Theology." (Romans 11)

You Forgot About That One Barry.

Calvinists Don't Even Agree Amongst Themselves On The Foundations, Scope And How They Arrived At Their Calvinism Conclusions.

There Are Covenantal And New Covenantal Calvinists.

"It is rarely appreciated how completely a presupposition may control the outcome of an interpretation." (HISTORICAL DOUBTS CONCERNING ONE COVENANT OF GRACE; R. K. McGregor Wright)

Mr. Wright Is A Calvinist.

What About The Assumptions That God's Choosing Excludes Ours?


"For It Is God That Worketh In You Both To Will And To Do Of His Good Pleasure' Excludes "Work Out Your Own Salvation With Fear And Trembling." (Philippians 2:12,13)

This Demonstrates Eternal Security. For More Go To: Doctrine Of Eternal Security-Can You Lose Your Salvation?


All Means All Unless It Conflicts With One Of The Five Points Of Calvinism?

Calvinist Bob Goes On To Argue Against Covenantalism Of Which Most Are Calvinists:

"The Calvinist ought to appreciate this in view of his frustration with the Arminian who, locked into the assumptions that human responsibility is dependent on freewill, and that the will must be free if it is to exist at all, concludes with every example of the usual terms for "will" or "choice" in Scripture, that his own theory of an autonomous will is being referred to. The verse saying "Whosoever will, let him come and take of the water of life freely" (Rev. 22:17) therefore must mean "Let everyone with freewill come and take salvation if he wants to!"

It Actually Is the Burden Of The Calvinist To Show that One Can Be Accountable For Wrong Decisions When In Fact They Have No More Say That Pinnochio did.

Bob Is Saying That The Calvinist Covenantalist Ought To Appreciate The Frustrations All Calvinists Have With Free Willers And Give Up His Covenantalism On the Same Basis.

Bob Goes On:

"Likewise covenantalists treat any verse mentioning the word "covenant" as if it somehow implies their one eternal covenant construct, when it actually refers in the context to a specific historical covenant."

You Mean That "all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." (Romans 11), May Actually Refer To God's Covenant With And Irresistable Saving Of Israel 'In That Day', and Not Refer To This Present Covenant And the Body Of Christ?

Mr. Wright Continues:

"For the responsible believer, traditional assumptions are just like any other "thoughts." They must therefore be brought under the control of Christ through his Word (2 Cor. 10:5). If a hermeneutical presupposition cannot be exegeted directly from Scripture, it has only the status of any other purely human supposition, and should therefore be submissive to the four critical tests outlined in Part I above."


I Agree With Bob Here On His Covenantal Conclusions, But Assumptions In The Whole Calvinist Camp Are Too Numerous To Completely Deal With Here But I Will Give A Few.

All Means All When Speaking Of The 'Total Depravity Of All' But Doesn't Mean All When Scripture Says 'Christ Died For All', Though Scripture Connects The Two Truths By The Word All. (Romans 11:32;Romans 5:14,15; Romans 3:23)


Because God Chooses, We Don't. This Would be Like Arguing With A JW On The Deity Of Christ And When The JW Shows Verses That Prove Christ's Humanity We Deduce From This That It Must Mean Christ Was Only A Man.

I Don't Have to Do Anything But Create A Stalemate With A Calvinist, Though I Have Accomplished More.

He Shows Gods' Choice I Show Mans. What Is The Conclusion?

That In This Universe Of Seeming Incompatibles, God Is Sovereign Though Man Responsible To Respond, And I Don't Mean In A Calvinist Way But In A Reasonable Way With Reasonable Means Supplied By God To Do So. God's Love Wouldn't Have It Any Other Way.

Bj Maxwell