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Christianity Under Fire

Plain Sense Interpretation/P'shat: Christs Comings
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Plain Sense Interpretation/P'shat: Christs Comings
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Lord Make Us Ready For Your Coming or our Going.

Plain Sense Interpretation: Christ's Comings

If one is going to claim special knowledge of the Bible then they should abide by the guidelines that the bible lays out.

The Gnostic doesn't like the plain sense meaning of scripture, so he has created an elaborate reinterpretation of it.

Since the Gnostic claims to have a special knowledge (gnosis) of the bible then he or she should not object to my use of the bible.

I John 4: This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

At first I thought the scripture above was emphasizing the need to understand that Christ was from heaven and was God, but it is really about Him coming in the flesh.

There are really those that don't believe Christ came in the flesh.

There are others that deny the existence of the flesh altogether.

"A theological error prevalent around the time of Christ. Generally speaking, Gnosticism taught that salvation is achieved through special knowledge (gnosis). This knowledge usually dealt with the individual's relationship to the transcendent Being. It denies the incarnation of God as the Son. In so doing, it denies the true efficacy of the atonement since, if Jesus is not God, He could not atone for all of mankind and we would still be lost in our sins. For more information. Please see Heresies http://www.carm.org/heresy.htm for more information."

http://www.carm.org/dictionary/dic_g-h.htm#Gnosticism

http://www.carm.org/dictionary/dic_g-h.htm

Also Docetism:

http://www.carm.org/heresy/docetism.htm

 'Christian Science' is Gnosticism

"They cannot come into His presence, and must dwell in dreamland, until mortals arrive at the understanding that material life, with all its sin, sickness, and death, is an illusion, against which divine Science is engaged in a warfare of extermination."

Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures (p. 543):

Hinduism calls the world we see 'maya' which means illusion.

Apparently they didn't like what they saw and wanted something else.

What would cause someone to not believe God meant what He said and thereby create an elaborate redefinition of the scriptures?

A simple formula works for me and that is, "If the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense, to replace it, lest you end up with nonsense"

This is really just believing God.

This is my modification ...'to replace it' of an old formula, which says if it makes sense believe it and don't seek another meaning to replace the plain sense meaning.

Paul/New World Dawning sent me this article:

Many Jews believe in a literal interpretation of scripture.

"The p'shat is the plain, simple meaning of the text. The understanding of scripture in its natural, normal sense using the customary meanings of the word’s being used, literary style, historical and cultural setting, and context. The p'shat is the keystone of Scripture understanding. If we discard the p'shat we lose any real chance of an accurate understanding and we are no longer objectively deriving meaning from the Scriptures (exegesis), but subjectively reading meaning into the scriptures (eisogesis)."

AND

"This is where another (implied) meaning is alluded to in the text, usually revealling a deeper meaning. There may still be a p'shat meaning as well as another meaning as any verse can have multiple levels of meaning."

http://www.yashanet.com/studies/judaism101/sidebars/pardes.htm

The one that replaces the p'shat with an allegorical meaning is obligated to show his or her reasoning for that.

Its all right to see a deeper meaning but don't replace one for the other.

How could one function in the real world or when they read something, follow rules etc., if they redefined everything as Gnostics do?

Many people follow the allegorical or esoteric rule which is something like this:

If the plain sense makes sense, replace it before you're expected to believe and obey it.

The Gnostic and religious groups like the Christian Scientists deny Christ's coming in the flesh, but at least are more consistent, though consistently wrong, than our next group.

The Full Preterist, believes Christ literally and physically came the first time, but will not do so the second time, despite the scriptures saying that is the way it will happen.

10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." (Acts 1:11, NIV)

Notice it says the same way you have seen him go.

How did He Leave?

1) Physically (Luke 24; John 20:27-31)

2) From the Mount of Olives (Acts 1)

That is how he is coming back:

"I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him. 6 On that day there will be no light, no cold or frost. 7 It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttime--a day known to the Lord. When evening comes, there will be light." (Zechariah 14)

What would be the point of so many physical and geographical details, if this wasn't a physical occurence?

The Preterist will believe the literal and physical details of the first coming of Christ as prophesied, but won't believe the literal and physical details of his second coming, though both comings are mentioned together.

Example: Zechariah 9:9,10;

The Preterist will believe Jesus is God, though won't believe that 'every eye shall see him' though both of these facts are mentioned together.

7 Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen. 8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." (Rev. 1, NIV)

The Preterist and Gnostic are obligated to create a complete and elaborate way of redefining each physical detail.

Notice the physical and geographical details I underlined in Zechariah.

The Jewish Skeptic often argues that Christ Jesus didn't fulfill all the prophecies.

The Preterist pretending to be their friend offers the allegorical solution.

An article I posted from conservatives online speaks of the fatal mistakes of Preterism, but the way Preterists misinterpret scripture is also the same method used of other wayward groups.

"Noe goes on and quotes Bertrand Russell, Albert Schweitzer, Jewish skeptics, Muslim, and even C.S. Lewis, who said that Jesus "was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else."...(End of Quote, Fatal Mistakes of Preterism, Mal Couch) )

Enter the Preterist who wants to tell the Jewish Skeptic that there is a reason that Jesus didn't visibly fulfill some prophecies and its because some of the fulfillments were allegorical and/or invisible.

The fact is that when Jesus took on flesh, He willingly limited himself. (Philippians 2:5-11)

My wife reminded me of the following verse:

He said that even he didn't know when He was coming back. (Mark 13:32)

I believe that His coming would be delayed because of the rejection of Messiah by Israel.

Check out: http://cuf5.tripod.com/id127.html

The Preterist says, He did come but you just didn't see it.

This throws away many verses that say He would be seen by 'every eye'.

What is the purpose of saying 'every eye' if someone could come along and say that it really doesn't mean a literal eye?

The Gnostic and the Preterist 'twist scripture to their own destruction.

15 Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, (Delay of coming) just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. (2 Peter 3)

"Allegorical interpretation believes that beneath the letter (rhete) or the obvious (phanera) is the real meaning (hyponoia) of the passage. Allegory is defined by some as an extended metaphor. If we presume that the document has a secret meaning (hyponoia) and there are no cues concerning the hidden meaning interpretation is difficult. … We are on very uncertain grounds. (p. 24)..." (End of Quote, Fatal Mistakes of Preterism, Mal Couch)

The logical next step can be the Preterist and Gnostic saying that we need their special understanding to interpret this secret meaning to the scriptures.

Twisting scripture is not just what Preterists do.

The Preterist is not really the Jews friend because they believe that God is finished with Israel and they blew it.

The Preterist may even deny that a real Jew even exists today.

Why did Jesus come the first time?

1) To seek and save that which was lost

2) To be our guide

3) To take our place on the cross (1 Corinthians 15)

4) To be tempted in every way as we are, but without sin. (Hebrews 4:15)

These points would be impossible if he didn't literally and physically come in the flesh.

When He comes again, he will show the marks of the first time, and this would be impossible without coming physically.

It will be the ones that crucified him and the House of Israel that will also see him and mourn.

"10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives." (Zechariah 12, NIV)

This doesn't mean that the ones that crucified him lived a really long time, it possibly means that He resurrects them to see this event.

Someone actually used this as an argument against this prediction saying that the ones that crucified him actually died.

Whether you accept the 'whom they have pierced' or 'thrust through' translation both happened to Jesus and it will be many Jewish Skeptics that will be mourning as predicted.

Those other skeptics that say that they will believe it when they see it, I say that may be too late for them.

I've never seen a pierced spirit and don't think I ever will. Jesus will be in the flesh and 'in the same manner they saw him go.

Most Jewish Skeptics/Counter Missionaries don't have a problem with Christ coming in the flesh. They know that a man Jesus existed in history.

Where many of them have a problem with is where he 'came' from and who he claimed to be.

"24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins. ..I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!' 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds." (John 8)

"No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." (1 Corinthians 2)

This mystery which is God in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16), was crucified thereby making both Jew and Gentile Guilty (Ephesians 2:14-17), and created the delay, which is also called a mystery, (Revelation 10; 2 Peter 3; Romans 11:24-27) whereby all have the opportunity to call on the Lord.

This is the reason for the delay and we should be grateful, not unbelieving for it.

"In the Beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God...and He became 'flesh' and dwelt among us...He came unto His Own and his own received him not, but to as many as received him, to them gave he the authority to become the sons of God...(John 1)

The Jewish Skeptic argues that Jesus didn't fulfill all prophecies and the Preterist says sure he did, but you weren't wearing your allegorical glasses.

I thoroughly showed a Jewish Skeptic group that Christ fulfilled every prophecy in Isaiah 53, and the Jewish Skeptics showed how like unbelieving Israel of the Old Testament and Isaiah 53 they were...who hath believed our report.

Details are in the scripture for a reason.

So you will literally believe it.

Just because you don't like the answers, doesn't change the facts.

'Jesus Christ is come in the flesh' He will come in the flesh again, but unto Judgment.

Are You Ready!!

The Jews didn't like where he claimed to have come from.

Sorry, cannot change the story just because you don't like it.

Many argue that Christ didn't visibly come soon as He said.

The following links by yours truly give my take on that, and his delay is related to the unbelief of Israel.

Who Hath Believed Our Report:

Christs Coming and Time Gaps:

http://cuf5.tripod.com/id127.html

Also:

Wanna Know Some Secrets:

http://cuf5.tripod.com/id58.html

Lord Make us ready for your coming or our going.

BJ Maxwell 04/22/2006

12/1/2006

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